What does /r/christianity think of Josh McDowell's book evidence for Christianity?

Sentinal76 · 2012-05-26T02:26:16.923136+00:00

I'm not a fan, but it has been far too long since I read it to give you anything constructive. It's the type of book that sounds really convincing so long as you're only vaguely familiar with the subjects that it brings up. I remember it set up a lot of false dichotomies, "It's either this or that, it certainly isn't this, and therefore it must be that" when in reality there were a lot of other options available.

rainer511 · 2012-05-25T23:34:45.416254+00:00

Thank you, I look forward to your responses.

Baptist_redditor · 2012-05-25T21:51:38.330924+00:00

It isn't a matter of "throwing out" some verses and "keeping" others. You make it sound like the Bible is a rule book--some kind of instruction manual--and some people accept all the rules and other people pick some that they like and throw away other ones. The whole "instruction manual" metaphor is wrong or at the very least woefully insufficient.

The Bible is poems and narratives and ancient letters and more. The closest thing in the Christian scriptures to a true rule book is Leviticus, and even that is told as a story, "YHWH said to Moses..." Even if Leviticus is taken as a factual, historical, and truthful account of an actual dictation of rules from God to the ancient Israelites, it is still a narrative: It is still part of a story that is informed by its historical context, inescapably interpreted by our own presuppositions, and read within the larger biblical narrative.

The Bible needs to be interpreted in order to have meaning for Christians. To a certain extent, this really should go without saying. Reading is interpretation. We usually call our methods of interpretation "hermeneutics". Depending on the variety of hermeneutic you employ (and depending on your own presuppositions and experiences), you will come to different conclusions concerning the meaning of the text and it's application.

rainer511 · 2012-05-25T21:29:11.418229+00:00

My family is from a part of Florida known for being about 50 years behind the times socially. When I'm around Protestant Christians in this area I often hear things like, "They were a Catholic for many years, but they just accepted Jesus and converted to Christianity!", "Global warming is a bunch of bunk, we already know how the world is going to end! It says so right in the Bible!", "We need to protect ourselves from higher education", "..evil lies of Darwinism...", "...homosexuals are an abomination...", etc.

So it was a jarring (yet positive) experience to visit the UCC congregation a mile and a half away from my home, have coffee with a lesbian couple afterwards, and then have a long conversation with their gay pastor about the problems inherent in penal satisfaction atonement theory.

It's like I stepped into another secret world living right under my nose.

rainer511 · 2012-05-25T21:19:53.597869+00:00

Is that just a problem inherent with being congregationalist?

rainer511 · 2012-05-25T21:16:38.282248+00:00

The UCC ordination process is set up for congregational work, and little, if anything, else. Chaplaincy, non-traditional ministries, anything new...

That's more than a little disappointing.

rainer511 · 2012-05-25T21:12:42.170821+00:00

Regardless, I'm definitely not trying to dissuade you from the UCC,

Oh, no. I don't see you as trying to dissuade me. This is exactly the sort of conversation I was looking for.

However, if the identity of the denomination is really so thoroughly associated with American liberal democrats, I do see that as problematic. The congregation I visited had an American flag and a Christian flag in the sanctury, and that always makes me feel comfortible. The only saving grace there, I guess, is that it being congregationalist, there is room for an individual congregation to resist that marriage of the flag and the cross.

rainer511 · 2012-05-25T20:53:51.322539+00:00

Well, the interplay of congregational freedom and denominational unity is kind of part of what interests me. If (as I'm learning) community shapes our experience of scripture (because scripture itself "speaks" only by being interpreted by individuals), then individual communities should (I think) have a certain amount of liberty to decide what it means for them to be Christian in their own contexts.

I may disagree with a congregation that takes the "just war" position on violence, but I like the idea that a congregation has the freedom to wrestle with the texts and take that position if that is where their experience of scripture leads them.

I guess I'm saying that we should embrace and celebrate interpretive pluralism as opposed to attempting to avoid it.

It seems like the UCC leaves enough room for that to happen, while at the same time having a sense of unity in the decisions of the General Synod (if I'm understanding all this correctly).

Is there any sort of denomination that you'd see as adequate?

rainer511 · 2012-05-25T20:33:14.159602+00:00

Do you see their identity as being overwhelmingly defined by their being American liberal democrats? Even internationally? That's one thing I intend to ask this weekend, whether or not the UCC is quintessentially an American denomination, and if not what it looks like worldwide.

I actually became interested when looking up Christian denominations in Japan (I'm considering possibly trying to live there... yeah I don't know what I'm doing with my life). The United Church of Christ in Japan is the largest Protestant denomination in the country. Like the UCC in America, they affirm and even ordain LGBT people. However, they aren't historically affiliated with the UCC in America (they just share the name [edit: though after contacting some random missions executive in the UCC they said that the UCC in Japan are their "partners in Japan", whatever that means]).

and celebrate veterans day.

They describe themselves as a "Just Peace Church". I assumed that meant that they champion nonviolence... is that not the case?

rainer511 · 2012-05-25T20:12:29.571758+00:00

but I felt I was too radical and UCC is too liberal.

If it isn't too much trouble, could you expand on this?

Part of what I enjoy about what I've seen of the UCC is the amount of freedom you have within it. It seems like there's plenty of room to be more liberal, more conservative, more whatever than the status quo.

If you're apart of their congregation you should join. Overall, I'm skeptical of church membership. I'm a member of the Free Methodist church...but in no way am I a Free Methodist...I guess I just joined to really be apart of my congregation....and also potlucks.

Previous to going to South Korea I was consistently a part of and served in a couple FUMCs for 5 years or so (on and off). I ended up joining for the reasons you mentioned. If I continue on a track towards ministry, I want to do so as part of a denomination. However, I've never really self identified as a Methodist. I'm not a part of any particular UCC congregation yet. I've visited one very recently and done a bit of online research. I've just been blown away by what I'm finding.

Visiting a single congregation and doing online research can only tell you so much though, so I wanted to get other opinions and experiences.

rainer511 · 2 days

Is that really what you got out of this? I don't see the article as trying to create fear about what might happen if there are more atheists, it's more about evaluating and responding to the growing criticism of the church.

rainer511 · 2 days

Goodness, you're right. It was shared by a friend elsewhere. I hadn't checked the date.

amazinglyanonymous · 3 days

It makes perfect sense, assuming you adopt 11th century presuppositions concerning justice.

thenorthwinddothblow · 3 days

Maybe it's just in my head.

But it would be fascinating to explore why when the rest of the internet becomes more and more liberal, r/christianity becomes more conservative.

Well, I don't know. I'd imagine that /r/atheism would be a much more tolerant and enjoyable space if it were smaller. The way I see it large numbers tend to encourage a certain narrow-minded group-think.

amazinglyanonymous · 3 days

I just want to point out that there is a variety of belief concerning sin, what sort of thing hell is, and what we do to find ourselves there.

Most of the objections you're raising are objections I'd raise myself.

This bit,

A punishment for a crime should be proportional to the value of the being that the crime was perpetuated against. For example, killing a bunny is not as bad as killing a baby. So if one commits a crime (sin) against an infinite being (God) then an eternal punishment is just.

owes a pretty substantial debt to Anselm of Canterbury and what people of his time saw as being just. The idea is that there are two components to what makes a sin a sin; the action itself and the debt we owe God for impugning his honor.

According to this way of looking at sin and punishment, the problem is less, "You murdered a rich kid and so now you're going to have a more severe punishment than if you killed a poor kid" but rather, "You, who should be my servant, murdered someone and by doing so you impugned my honor. Therefore you will be punished not only for your action, but also to repay the debt of honor you owe me".

Yeah, I find it problematic too.

thenorthwinddothblow · 3 days

We've actually slowly become significantly more conservative as the subreddit has grown.

RobertF23 · 3 days

I thought she was phenomenal in Speak.

TakingADumpRightNow · 4 days

I know I'm going to regret this, but what's a Yolo?

partofaplan2 · 4 days

Really? I can't stand the guy. I knew someone who got caught up in his teachings. Every other day his Facebook updates were about "toking the Holy Ghost".

condescending_potato · 4 days

"The Last Word" is always what i recommend to people who are new to hermeneutics.

Scripture and the Authority of God is a revised version of The Last Word. I actually have only read The Last Word myself, but I assume the updated version is just as good.

condescending_potato · 4 days

I'd suggest you read a bit about what the Bible even is and how we go about interpreting it in the church. For this I'd recommended Marcus Borg's Reading the Bible Again for the First Time which sounds like it's a book practically written for you, and also N.T. Wright's Scripture and the Authority of God (alternatively, the same material is available in condensed form in this article).

magicalmilk · 4 days

I had an overnight layover at Narita coming back from Korea. It was my first time ever visiting Japan at all. At the airport I found an information desk and they provided me with a list of hotels. I circled a capsule hotel and bumbled my way into Tokyo. Once in Tokyo, I got in a taxi and handed the piece of paper to the driver. Showed up. Got a room for the night. It was relatively cheap. Fun experience overall.

That's my experience with them, but judging by what other people are saying it couldn't hurt to make a reservation.

Joe0793 · 5 days

I like this a lot, however it was (rightfully) caught in the spam filter. According to point seven of our community policy, rage comics must be submitted as a self post.

Please do submit it again.

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