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[–]thoomfish 35 points36 points ago

My opinion on motion control is that it can be used well, but generally isn't. Attempting to simulate 1:1 motion mapping is a recipe for frustratingly leaky metaphors (i.e. the Ghirahim fights in Skyward Sword, which completely throw away the notion of 1:1 mapping).

Instead, developers should stick with what the controls are actually good for:

  • Pointing. Motion control beats the ever-swinging hell out of analog sticks for pointing at on-screen objects from your couch.
  • Gestures (a.k.a. waggle) as additional control inputs
  • Some small skeumorphic flourishes when it makes sense and adds to immersion (i.e. unlocking boss doors in Skyward Sword)

Twilight Princess and Metroid Prime 3 had good, understated use of motion controls.

Much like the DS stylus, it's going to take developers some time to get used to the idea that motion controls are available, but shouldn't be shoehorned in everywhere (anybody else remember the first year or so of awful DS gimmick games?). They should be used to embellish existing control schemes rather than to replace them.

[–]4InchesOfury 18 points19 points ago

Pointing. Motion control beats the ever-swinging hell out of analog sticks for pointing at on-screen objects from your couch.

Really? Motion controls have always been horrible for me when it comes to pointing. I could never hold the "cursor" thing still.

[–]EmoryM 4 points5 points ago

Agreed - I remember when those "3D" computer mice came out... was that the 90's? Anyway, I'm not using one now, so I reckon nothing beats a regular mouse when it comes to pointing.

[–]okiyama 15 points16 points ago

We're talking consoles here, obviously a mouse pointer is the best pointer.

[–]EmoryM 1 point2 points ago

I don't think there's anything obvious about it - Minority Report-style interfaces look really cool until you've got to hold your hand in a certain spot because nothing maps to click...

[–]Deafiler 1 point2 points ago

Why not use a multi-touch interface? One finger moves your pointer, and the second finger that shows up counts as a click.

[–]alphazero924 1 point2 points ago

Because nothing out right now is capable of tracking a full skeleton including fingers (and toes?). The kinect is the most powerful hardware for tracking skeletons in 3D space that's out for consumers. Sure you could probably do better on a full blown computer, but I doubt anyone is hooking a computer to their 360 and we're talking about consoles right now. It can only track your head, limbs, and torso. And it can only do that with up to two people on screen. There's no way you could set up a proper multi-touch interface with it.

[–]Deafiler 0 points1 point ago

Sure you could, dominant hand for moving around, other hand for 'clicking' with an up-and-down wave or something.

[–]squidwalk 0 points1 point ago

I'll answer "really." I played RE4 when it first came out via dual analogs, and then again for the Wii re-release. The accuracy of the motion controls made the game's difficulty nearly trivial. Since the pacing of the game is set to allow players to slowly line up shots via analog sticks, it felt like you get a small eternity to line up each shot in the Wii version. Eventually I came to appreciate the full extent of this, and played through the game with nothing but the first pistol you're given and melee attacks.

[–]IdeaPowered 1 point2 points ago

Luger Run go go :) Best way to play RE4... even without motion controls.

[–]gogoskuzrocket 0 points1 point ago

This is a dexterity issue. I recall playing the HOTD re-releases for Wii with my MD-in-training roommate. My crosshair sat still on the screen during transitions while his wiggled.

[–]qizarate 5 points6 points ago

Wait a minute, did you just say Twilight Princess has good, understated motion controlst? Motion controls are great when used well, though their use is limited. I don't want them shoehorned into a game just for the sake of it. I found they improved the heck out of my Zelda playing experience in Skyward Sword, but kind of irritated me in Twilight Princess (the pointing was good, but I had to point at the sensor bar, and the gestures were pointless).

[–]OmegaVesko 6 points7 points ago

Twilight Princess

Good motion controls

Care to elaborate on that? Especially since TP is essentially a GameCube game with motion controls tacked onto it.

[–]kemitche 15 points16 points ago

That's precisely why, I think. A little waggle, a little pointing, nothing fancy.

[–]alphazero924 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, the way to do motion controls is not to make it the core mechanic of the game, but to make it just a little flick of the controller every once in a while or something along those lines. Sure you can make a game with 1:1 mapped motion controls, but that only works well for things like wii sports resort and other short simple games. Making a game of any length or complexity around motion controls is just going to wind up annoying the person playing as length means you get tired in long play sessions and complexity means something is probably going to go wrong that is the fault of the motion controls.

[–]natey-nate 0 points1 point ago

then whats the point? the motion controls added nothing to twilight princess.

no game has attempted 1:1 mapped motion (or anything close to it) in a big title yet. i don't think we should automatically disregard it as a possibility. until someone makes that game and the entire community complains that it is stupid and is too tiring, i will want it.

[–]alphazero924 0 points1 point ago

Have you seen Skyward Sword?

[–]natey-nate 0 points1 point ago

yes. i made a comment up earlier in this thread. Skyward Sword didn't go far enough. it was Nintendo's chance to really show the rest of the world the possibilities and future of the technology--to lead by example.

what better platform for showcasing this than one of their flagship franchises? they had complete control over the game, they had as much time and money as they needed. i was optimistic, excited even.

but in the end they only went halfway.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]Deafiler 4 points5 points ago

Something I feel relevant: The three independent reviewers were all talking about a Zelda game, and giving a bad score to one of those is like going to Calcutta and lighting a cow on fire.

[–]Killfuck_Soulshitter 0 points1 point ago

Even with MP3, which is the Wii game that had me yelling "FUCKING USE THE GRAPPEL" the least out of all Wii games, had pretty weak motion control. I thought I was going to throw out my shoulder trying to activate the stupid grapel sometimes.

[–]CarpeKitty 40 points41 points ago

It's not so much that motion IS a fad, it's that it's still treated as such. If it doesn't fit, don't force it. It's basics.

Take this example. A button works when you press it. It responds. It's almost instant. It's also just a button. It's hard to push a button wrong. You can push the wrong button, but that can be overcome in time. And since all games on the selected console only have those buttons to choose from it can't ever be a different button.

So why would someone put motion controls in instead? Was a button not sufficient? Was the game enhanced by motion in such a compelling way that otherwise would not have suited?

Skyward Sword does this with the shield. It's an accurate timing mechanic that is paired with a focus that isn't accurate and is open to interpretation and failure. Punching doesn't really nail it :(

[–]NonTrivialPursuit 7 points8 points ago

It's not so much that motion IS a fad, it's that it's still treated as such.

I think this is pretty spot on, especially when you consider how inaccurate original Wii remotes are, and the fact that Kinect/Move are add-ons.

Full motion control is an add-on for all 3 systems...and that is always going to affect the quality and quantity of development.

[–]AmoDman 2 points3 points ago

While this is definitely true for 3rd party developes, MS has been making Kinect the focus of its endeavors since its launch. If it weren't for the (still) distinct lack of games for the thing, one might almost get the impression from MS that the Kinect is their main console.

[–]NonTrivialPursuit 2 points3 points ago

Yes, but it's still a peripheral. Only a small fraction of users own it. That means limited profit for any developer. This always leads to smaller budget and a mind for more party-type games.

[–]AmoDman 0 points1 point ago

Well I don't know about "small" percentage.

Out of 66 million 360s sold, 18 million owners also own Kinect. That's close to a third of the userbase.

[–]NonTrivialPursuit 0 points1 point ago

I suppose small is relative. Sales are indeed impressive, but the issue still comes down to...if you are a third party developer, you only stand to sell 1/3 as many games for the same amount of work. That, and who wants to play an online FPS with Kinect or a 100+ hour RPG?

These are real limitations.

[–]benreeper 1 point2 points ago

Also one of the selling points of consoles over PC is that you relax on your couch with a controller in your hand for hours playing a game. Motion controls turns gaming into a stand up physical activity. Fun for awhile, but like you said, would it be fun in a 100+ hour RPG?

[–]dudleymooresbooze 18 points19 points ago

Remember how reddit trashed the reviewer who knocked skyward sword controls before the game came out? Everyone said it's one to one motion control so he must be an idiot. Turns out he was absolutely right. Those turned out to be the least usable controls I can remember. So many times trying to just move the sword to the opposite side of the enemy's body to swipe from the other direction, and the game translated the intended slow motion onto a swipe of its own.

[–]Rammurg 12 points13 points ago

Despite those problems, I think the motion controls improved the experience in that game. In fact, I consider the act of finding out how to work around problems as just part of the process of learning to play the game - just like any other game, to varying extents. I'm not saying such "technical limitations/bad design choices" are good for a game, but I feel they're too easily considered to "break" a game.

Discipline on the developers' part is important though, if motion controls don't seem to improve what you're trying to apply them to, a more traditional solution should be used (until you find a way to improve the motion control implementation).

[–]dudleymooresbooze 14 points15 points ago

Hell, if they had just had you hold a button down while swinging the remote when you intended to "swipe," that would have solved 90% of the problems with that game.

[–]Rammurg 7 points8 points ago*

... Goddamn, that sounds so simple and would have indeed helped tremendously. It shouldn't feel "off" either if you view it as sort of firming your grip.

[–]Carighan 1 point2 points ago

Yep, pretty much. Because except for that "What is a swipe and what is not"-problem, I thought the controls were brilliant, and improved the gameplay a fair bit. Just that "inaccuracy" was a problem.

[–]qizarate 5 points6 points ago

Wow, is this what r/truegaming is? A bunch of people who can't even operate a Zelda game?

Let's clarify something: the people who bashed him were those who actually had review copies, and noticed that he was playing the game wrong. They didn't make this fact up - he literally had no idea what he was doing, because he tried to play the game like Twilight Princess. It doesn't work that way. And that's a good thing.

The fact that your post is so highly upvoted shows me that a ton of people here are either pre-judging the game "because waggle controls lol", or that many people played the game wrong... in that case, how sad.

Fact is, if you think he's right, you might be a true gamer, but you're definitely not a good one. Once you get past the first Ghirahim fight, it should be rare that a movement is mistranslated as a swipe. If it keeps happening, I'm willing to bet the issue isn't the game.

[–]LotusFlare 6 points7 points ago

After finishing the game with no problem that I couldn't trace back to my own error, I have to agree that this is the case.

The real trouble is getting gamers to admit to an input problem. Correctly controlling this game was a minor physical skill. It wasn't buttons or joysticks, it was deliberate physical movement. Gamers aren't good at that. Every single error you make in the game can be traced back to a quirk in your physical movement. If a thrust isn't responsive, it's because you're pushing to the side faster than you push forward. If you can't get the sword to the other side, it's because you are literally crossing a physical threshold of movement. Gamers don't like the idea that they're actually bad at the absolute basics of playing a game, so they push the problem to other sources.

[–]natey-nate 0 points1 point ago

this is a problem caused by the games insistence to analyze your movement and place it in one of a limited number of categories.

you attempt to thrust forward, but maybe its not a good enough of a thrust to be classified as one so it ends up becoming a side slash. maybe you accidentally did a sweeping thrust. the game is confused and interprets it as either a thrust or a sweep because there is no sweeping thrust option. there is only side to side, up down, diagonal, and thrust.

the sad thing is that the wiimotion plus is very capable of reproducing your movement in 1:1, but they chose not to implement it into the game.

if they did, none of this would be a problem AND it might've actually been an interesting battle mechanic.

[–]LotusFlare 1 point2 points ago

To me, your "sweeping thrust" example is the equivalent of pressing the A and B buttons at the same time and being angry that the developers didn't program an action corresponding to it. That input was never taken into consideration during the development, and would have no place in the game that was produced.

This argument isn't really the one I was responding to, though. I do think you have a reasonable point that the motion+ is capable of a lot more than what they showed off in the game, but I was addressing the idea that the controls aren't responding correctly to the player's motions. They're reflecting exactly what the player is telling them.

Even if the game more accurately showed what type of swing you ACTUALLY did as opposed to what you thought you did, I still think the complaints would exist. I think gamers would still want a thrust, but move their arm in a sweep/thrust and complain that the game wasn't responsive. We're just not used to having physical trouble learning a control scheme.

[–]natey-nate 0 points1 point ago

its a valid point. i mean fighting games are all about inputting particular sweeps, quarter circles, etc. in a very specific way to get your character to do the actions that you want. if ryu doesn't do a fireball when you wanted him to, it is indeed the fault of the player, not the game.

these tight controls can be frustrating for a player not used to them, and motion controls have an even greater potential. it will certainly require users to adapt and get used to the new control schemes, as you said. but, additionally, i think the developers will have to design their game to integrate this newfound precise control effectively. this may mean a physics based engine rather than the lock and key style battle mechanic skyward sword went with.

im interested to see a different approach because i'm not convinced that skyward sword did it correctly. hopefully there are some developers that haven't given up on motion controls just yet--there is more to explore.

[–]natey-nate 0 points1 point ago

compare skyward sword's motion controls to say wii sports resort. the wii motion plus is more capable of true 1:1, but zelda does not have it. i own the game and, regardless of how finicky it may or may not be, its a major disappointment.

the promise of the technology could have been explored much further, but all it has is the ability to slice horizontally, vertically, and diagonally (up to down/ down to up). the combat could have been about technique, it could have had the biting precision to really revolutionize swordplay in videogames, but nintendo didn't have the balls.

what a waste of technology.

[–]qizarate 1 point2 points ago

t all it has is the ability to slice horizontally, vertically, and diagonally (up to down/ down to up)

And GAMERS have enough trouble co-ordinating that, you think they would have been able to function with complete 1:1? It's a video game, not a sword-fighting sim - and it's apparently already too difficult.

[–]natey-nate 0 points1 point ago

but you see, 1:1 would've actually erased co-ordination troubles because it would be more accurate...

[–]CarpeKitty 1 point2 points ago

That drove me mad. I flailed like mad in a desperate rush to not miss openings to attack.

SS was the first game I've had a game over in at the last boss since ALttP.

[–]swaggasaurus 0 points1 point ago

That's also because it was more difficult even with without issues with the controls. I had no issues at all with the controls, and I got a couple game overs just because some parts were hard.

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points ago

I just got Move a couple weeks ago, and I'm liking it a lot so far. It's true that there isn't much out there for it, which is a bit of a shame, because in just the early tech demos alone, there was a ton of really cool things it can do. I believe it has taken Wii's crown as the gold standard for motion control, as far as 1:1 accuracy goes.

The biggest problem (and I think this is most evident with Kinect) is that devs (or more likely publishers) either don't know what to do with it or how to implement it well, or are too scared to do anything that's a bit more out-there and take better advantage of what it can do.

For example, the aforementioned Move demos. Just give me that. Forget about a "game". Just give me a package of tech demos that are each a little sandbox for me to play around with what it can do. Put me in a room with a cube made of jelly and let me slice it up. That right there would be better than most "real games" put out so far.

In that vein, of the things I've gotten for Move, the best by far is Tumble. It's like they read my mind. Just gimme some blocks and let me stack 'em. It's sublime. That's all they need to do. Set up something simple and rewarding, and just let the devices abilities shine and speak for themselves. The Move version of "Wii Sports", whatever it's called, is also pretty great.

Everything I've tried so far works very well, compared to what I remember about Wii (thoughI must admit I haven't really played much that utilizes WiiMotion+). I certainly hope that more PSN-type games come out to support it. It's funny, I've kind of wanted a Move in the back of my mind for a while now, but hadn't payed much attention to the actual lineup. I had sort of assumed that if Sony was to go through the cost and potential embarrassment of actually bringing this product to the market, that they'd have a pretty robust lineup, but there really isn't too much out there. It's not too unlike how they had the camera accessory even way back on PS2, even though I can't think of a single game that used it. But there's some pretty great things. That said, there's not really a ton out there for Kinect, even.

One definite perk (at least for Move and Wii) is that they're also basically light guns. That shit is pretty fun. I got Dead Space Extraction, it's great. I've also heard generally pretty good things about Killzone and Resistance as well, despite those not being "Move-only".

When it comes to companies not knowing what to do with it, in my opinion it's almost like they try too hard. In the case of Kinect, that device is frankly incredible. There's so many worthwhile, meaningful implementations for it, if they'd just relax and let it be a little more in the background. What they're doing in ME3 is very exciting to me, because it's the first game I've seen that uses Kinect to augment traditional gameplay. Imagine an FPS where you could actually lean and duck to peek around corners or over cover. Even if it was negligible as far as actual gameplay goes, and it was just an ever-so-subtle shifting of the POV, the difference in immersion alone would be great. See Gran Turismo 5's head tracking for a taste of what I mean. Voice commands, hand signals, there's so many cool little touches they could throw into regular, controller-controlled games, but instead they do this.

This stuff is relatively still very new. There's so much possibility there. It would be terribly unfortunate for gamers, and short-sighted of companies if it were to die out. To me, the problem is similar to gaming on smartphones recently. They can't just make a regular game like before, stick the buttons on the screen, and expect it to be just as good. They need to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of the platform, and design for that. Once some smart devs start to really unlock the potential of these technologies, shit's gonna start poppin' off. And I, for one, can't wait.

[–]rhfs 5 points6 points ago

I remember first seeing tech demos for the Move years ago and being extremely impressed. I think it's the best implementation of motion control we've seen so far, but it needs a killer title to help really bring it into the mainstream. You mentioned some games that apparently take advantage of the system pretty well, but honestly, I never hear people talking about them.

I feel like for Sony and Microsoft, motion control is probably just an experiment for the next generation of consoles. There are plenty of rumors abound that Microsoft will be integrating Kinect into the next Xbox, and I wouldn't be surprised if Sony makes the Move standard on it's next console as well.

[–]The-Dudemeister 3 points4 points ago

Yea grab the sharpshooter for Killzone and resistance. Its the best thing since sliced bread. you'll be frustrated at first because you're essentially going to have to reteach yourself how to play FPSs all over again with new control set up, but after I'd say about 4 hours or so of doing it you should get it down and you'll wonder why this thing didn't come out 10 years ago.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, I'm going to pick up that bundle later this week actually. It'll leave me with an extra Eye, but it's such a steal even still. I can't wait to try it out.

[–]auronvi 0 points1 point ago

It was fun, I tried it out. It is frustrating at first but great when you get the hang of it. My biggest gripe is that you can't put the controller down to rest your arms because you constantly have to point it at the screen. After about an hour, my arms just were tired from holding the gun so long. I would have bought it but I live in a small room where using the Move would not be fun at all!

[–]s34mu5 0 points1 point ago

Yeah try Killzone 3, I think the move is actually the best out the 3. It is way more accurate compared to the Wii and the Kinnect is just too inaccurate and annoying for a shooter, if you like to jump about it is okay, and how are you going to pull a trigger in a shooter with that?

[–]metarugia 0 points1 point ago

For some reason I feel like minecraft would be an interesting Move title.

[–]Pudie 1 point2 points ago

It's going to work with Kinect, isn't it?

[–]metarugia 0 points1 point ago

Considering it was just released officially for windows I don't see why not.

[–]squidthesid 0 points1 point ago

I like the way Sony implements Move controls in their games. Rather than force the players to use it, they allow the player to use it optionally in their first party titles. Another thing I like is how it's more dedicated towards the hardcore crowd (e.g Killzone 3, Resistance 3, Resident Evil 5 Gold Edition, Bioshock infinite) and there is quality software available for it. I've also heard that it was the most accurate out of the motion control devices on the market.

[–]The-Dudemeister 11 points12 points ago

I have all three so I guess I'll chime in.

1) I still think the wii sucks. I think its really inaccurate and is plagued with problems. The motionplus helped a little bit, but overall it is still pretty bad. I think it is a poor move on Nintendos part to use the same setup on the next console instead of redoing the controllers. I think its okay for the simple flash-type games such as mario party, trauma center, cooking mama, etc. but it just fails to meet the standard of justification for actual games. As others have said it worked well enough for the metroid series, but at the same time what exactly was the point when you target lock everything. It didn't fit either Zelda, imo. Neither should have had it. I agree the implementation was better in the 2nd one, but it still had lots of issues (For example, why do you have to center it every time you go to 1st person? Bad software or bad hardware? I don't know.) Regardless of it all it just was never good as you wanted it to be. Unless you are a hardcore zelda guy, you probably wouldn't have enjoyed the latest zelda. Also moving the controller in a direction (up down left or right) in lieu of a button press is not what anyone imagined when they though of motion controls. It is just shitty design.

2) The Move - this is your gold standard, imo. In my opinion it is what the wii should have been like. Sure the controllers look like dildos, but it works perfectly. The sharpshooter attachment is the best thing to come out of the motion controls. Ask anyone who had one with killzone 3. It was THE way to play. Your accuracy is much much better with it (though you did have to reteach your self how to play FPSs since your hands weren't used to it.) If I had my way, they would have to make every FPS implement a control system for the move. I still hop back on to KZ3 multiplayer from time to time and still find it more enjoyable than say BF3. I mean come on, you are holding a fucking gun and murdering people in the TV. Of course you have the problem with the lack of software for the move. I am still waiting to see if sorcery ever comes out.

3) Kinect. I actually just got this a few weeks ago because my gf was begging me to get that Dance Central game. To be honest, I was quite impressed. It is a lot more accurate than I thought it would be. I feel like a goofball playing it some times, but it's pretty legit. Like the move though, I wish there was more games for it. Most of the stuff here is little excercisey type games. I am totally sold on it being included with the next xbox. I feel like they should include a wand like controller (kind of like the move) that way you could open up the possibilities on the type of games that it could be used for.

All in all if you took the crazy camera of the xbox and combined it with the move, I think you would have the holy grail of motion control gaming. Only if....

[–]1338h4x 3 points4 points ago

I see it much like touch screen controls on the DS. When it came out, everyone was racing to shoehorn it into their games no matter how gimmicky or terrible, but after a while they finally realized where it does and doesn't work. Plenty of games use it now, plenty more don't.

[–]shadow1515 2 points3 points ago

It works for some things, but I don't think it's enough to justify actually including it in future consoles. The only standout success to me is the Wii version of Resident Evil 4. That game just worked; it felt natural, and pointing with the Wii remote was by far the superior way to play the game in my opinion.

More often than not, though, motion controls simply degrade the quality of otherwise perfectly good games. The worst offender I've experienced is New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Super Mario World had a very similar spin jump move to that game, mapped to the A button. There's no reason at all Nintendo couldn't have included a control scheme using the classic controller that was identical to Super Mario World. Instead, they pushed their motion control. Jostling the controller while playing was awkward, and if I had to readjust my grip or scratch an itch on my nose I'd often jump on accident, causing a moving platform to fly out from under me, and fall to my death.

It works sometimes, but it doesn't work even more of the time, and I just don't think it's worth it.

[–]DustbinK 3 points4 points ago

You don't know a single title for Move because Sony is doing it right and it works in games both with a regular controller and with Move. Find some reviews. People compare Move on PS3 for FPS games like Killzone to a mouse and keyboard.

[–]Albatoonoe 7 points8 points ago

There is another way to look at that. With these motion controls "tacked on", they will never be particularly good or deep, since this game was designed to be played with a controller.

That was the main complaint against Twilight Princess on the wii is that it's controls were added after the fact.

[–]The-Dudemeister -1 points0 points ago

He's right, Killzone3 and resistance is superb with the sharpshooter. I would take that any day over mouse and keyboard. People in killzone used to bitch and moan all the time because they thought the move players were given an unfair advantage since they couldn't simply buy a $90 controller.

[–]DustbinK -5 points-4 points ago

facepalm

You will say anything to make motion controls look bad, won't you? God forbid a company design a game with both in mind.

[–]shadow1515 2 points3 points ago

I think what Albatoonoe means is that if there is a choice between motion and traditional controls and they both work equally well, what was the point of spending the extra time and money to implement the motion controls?

Though if PS3 Move is equivalent to kb+m for FPS (I have no way of knowing as I don't own a PS3), then the answer would be, "Because the motion controls are actually better, but Sony aren't assholes who push them on you if you don't want them." Is that about right? The closest thing I can think of in my own experience is Resident Evil 4 on Wii. The Gamecube controls are still completely intact, and they work fine since the game was designed for the Gamecube controller, but the Wii controls are far superior (IMO) for that game.

[–]DustbinK 1 point2 points ago

Because they're not equal, as Ansam's example shows. If you use them in the right games then they work better than a controller. If you use them in the wrong game of course, then they're worse. Which is why it's great when you have the option.

Also, I never said it was equivalent to M+B. It's just closer.

[–]Albatoonoe 2 points3 points ago

Hey hey, I like motion controls. I'm just stating that this is a common opinion. Don't put words in my mouth.

On the other hand, putting motion controls sometimes works fantastically. Like Metroid Prime Trilogy or Resident Evil 4. Just because it can work doesn't mean it will. It's just something to consider.

[–]Rafoie 0 points1 point ago

Ive heard some pretty bleh things about killzone and its motion controls... I can do with out them on most of the titles. The only stuff where motion controls is like needed is for shit like DDR or guitar hero... sims if you will. But not like train sim... no one needs motion controlled train sim...

[–]The-Dudemeister 2 points3 points ago

Nah its excellent. If someone said it was bleh, they gave up on it. you have to teach yourself how to play all over again, which I guess is too much for some people. The people topping the charts in the KZ3 leaderboards are all Move players, since it is way more accurate than the controller.

[–]DustbinK -4 points-3 points ago

What about RUSE?

Also, it's not about "doing without", it's about having the option in the first palce. I don't care about your personal opinion. Notice I'm not posting mine.

[–]Rafoie 1 point2 points ago

Options are good and all but are still a 2nd thought. If motion controls are to be contenders they need to be the primary form of playing. But then standard controllers would lack. Just like porting a game from consoles to PC or vice versa. Something is always lacking... because its not the intended format. The only option I want for ruse is: http://www.cyberdyne.jp/english/ti/index.html so i can feel like that guy from the trailers with that fancy touch screen thing.

[–]DustbinK 0 points1 point ago

So besides one launch title do you have any proof that they're a second thought? Also, who said anything about them being contenders? Once again, why are people refusing to see them as just another option? "Intended format" is bullshit. Think about games that work fine on both M+KB and controller. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything you could use to interact with a game. I see no problem in giving the user more than one choice and you've yet to give any sort of evidence to show that motion controls are "tacked on" except for obvious ports.

[–]ansam 1 point2 points ago

A word on Killzone with the move controller: I don't think it's anywhere close to being as accurate as using a mouse to aim (that's probably just me, I play on PC more), but it is a lot easier for me to aim with it than the dualshock controller. I played the entire campaign with the move controller + sharpshooter, aiming was easy and more precise. There are calibration issues, but after a few minutes of play, you get used to it.

[–]rseymour 1 point2 points ago

I bought the move + sharpshooter to play kz3. I'm not a big gamer. I found it pretty darn fun.

Also played MAG which is a lot of fun too.

[–]bahlgan 5 points6 points ago

Well, here goes. I've used all three.

The absolute best motion controlled games are for the wii. The wii uses a controller with an accelerometer or multiple accelerometers in the case of MotionPlus. The reason being that the games are developed as GAMES, not gimmicks. If you look through Nintendos first party library, its also obvious there are certain games that subtly train you to be able to use their Wiimote like a pro(think of the star bits in Super Mario Galaxy, though it's an interesting concept, seems very specifically trying to improve your pointing skills).

The Kinect is the easiest to use. It makes navigating the UI stupid easy. It uses multiple cameras and sensors as well as a microphone. It's tracking is very poor compared to both the Wii and PS3, however. It has some problems with multiple players, as well as working in low light settings. There are pretty fun games for Kinect, however, they do seem to be targeted to children, and the production value isn't incredibly bad, but definately more shovelware than the other two offerings. IMO, it's a much more powerful UI tool than a gaming tool, except when the voice control is added to normal controller gameplay.

Now, the best motion control, the Playstation Move. It breaks my heart to say, this is also the least fun to use. Using both a camera AND. A controller, multiple accelerometers, Move can track rotation, yaw, depth, and more. The controllers are all wireless, light, and comfortable, and look like wands with balls of light at the top. It tracks motion in an almost one to one level. When I TWITCH my hand in Sports Champions(the bundled game) I see the sword twitch in the game, if I rotate the controller, the character rotates the sword. The titles for Move are awful. Sony has instead tried to incorporate first party games with a motion control option WHICH IS HOW IT FUCKING SHOULD BE, accept, though it's a powerful strategy, they fall short on delivering a fun experience, just a more complex or more"real" one. Using the normal controls for most of these games makes more sense. Games that support both and do motion well are Heavy Rain, Killzone 3, and Resistance 3.

Motion control is still a new technology. Game developers should make strides in using is as an option instead of shoving down players throats. It's definately fun every once in a while, but not something I'd wanna do every day. Cheers, gamers.

[–]kdawggg 0 points1 point ago

My opinion on the kinect is, you CAN'T do anything with it. Everything (fps's, hack n' slash's etc.) is on rails and isn't that fun to play. The playstation move is a great system but the guys at Playstation AREN'T doing anything with it. I think that both, the kinect before the PS Move will "go the way of the virtual boy." It already seems like it's begun.

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[–]Connador 3 points4 points ago

Really? I stopped playing SS because the controls got too annoying, having to recenter it every couple minutes after seemingly not moving was a huge pain. I wish it would have used the IR to help center itself on it's own, but for some reason they didn't.

I spent at least an hour on the first boss because I couldn't fucking swing the sword at the right angle.

[–]zuzmlu 2 points3 points ago

I think some people must have faulty hardware because there seems to be widely polarized views on the motion controls. I personally never had to recalibrate my controller besides when you initially do so when you start playing. Once I figured out it retakes the center not from the TV but where ever you were pointing the remote when you used the item/started swimming or flying etc, i never had to recentre it either. Like RadiantSun i much prefer skywards swords motion control to mere button combat. The Ghirahim boss fights are some of the most engaging moments ive had in a game in recent years.

[–]Connador 0 points1 point ago

The fact that it centered on where you pointed it was what really bothered me, I wanted to pull out the item and already be aiming where I wanted to shoot/blow/grapple like with the IR sensor. :|

Consciously (for me, anyway) having to remember to change that each time was just as annoying as having to recenter it. When I needed to quickly aim it didn't make sense to have to first point at the center and then move.

[–]zuzmlu 0 points1 point ago

yeah they should have atleast made it an option to choose how you wanted, i found it faster since i could begin aiming immediately and didnt have to find the sensor bar.

[–]The-Dudemeister 0 points1 point ago

I think it depends on your TV. If you have a giant HDTV you end up having problems. If you have smaller TV then you tend to not have issues (as far as having to recalibrate every so often). At least that is what I experienced. Either way it was shitty design. Having to Center in 1st person is inexcusable.

[–]kemitche 1 point2 points ago

I noticed that the game assumed that wherever I was pointing when activating an item was "center". So I either would point at center before activating, or just hit the recenter button immediately. Not ideal, but manageable.

Most of the motion controls in SS seemed similar - odd at first, but very manageable once fully understood.

[–]cppdev 0 points1 point ago

I wish it would have used the IR to help center itself on it's own, but for some reason they didn't.

THEY DID!! I just beat Skyward Sword on my PC, so I got to do a lot of diagnotics/experiments thanks to all the PC-based tools they have out there. It turns out Skyward primarily uses the Wii Motion Plus, but really does require constant connection to the IR bar to maintain calibration. Otherwise what happens is the calibration slowly drifts off, causing lots of problems like reversing directions and not detecting the full range of motion.

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[–]Whit3y 0 points1 point ago

couldn't think of a better reason

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[–]ThrashWolf 1 point2 points ago

Original post said they liked Skyward Sword despite the motion controls, guy I replied to said that he actually preferred the motion controls. When I replied he had around -3 comment karma.

[–]deilax -1 points0 points ago

Bitch move on his behalf, if you can't stand up for what you said best just keep his mouth shut.

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[–]okelfo 2 points3 points ago

Let me just mention that playing "Heavy Rain" with Move was one of the most awesome gaming experiences I ever had.

[–]auronvi 0 points1 point ago

I am moving out and will finally have enough room to play Move... I have Killzone 3 and Heavy Rain waiting for me to purchase a Move.

[–]DiaperParty -5 points-4 points ago

Playing Heavy Rain, period, was one of the most pivotal moments in my realization that gaming as a whole was headed in a terrible direction.

[–]okelfo 2 points3 points ago

Why the hate? Because it's nothing like Skyrim? Or are there actually any reasons?

[–]DiaperParty -3 points-2 points ago

Because it's nothing like Skyrim?

...huh? What makes you think I only enjoy games like Skyrim? I didn't like it because it was, essentially, a film with some pointless interaction. It was a Choose Your Own Adventure book, and I demand more genuine gameplay from something that calls itself a video game.

[–]okelfo 1 point2 points ago

So it's a bad game because it turned out exactly the way the creators wanted it, and not the way you like. Okay.

[–]DiaperParty -5 points-4 points ago

Uh, yeah, sure.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points ago

Yeah, fuck deep and engaging storytelling.

[–]DiaperParty 0 points1 point ago

Heavy Rain was a movie with some poorly implemented and pointless "gameplay" to give the illusion that you're actually accomplishing something. It is the furthest a piece of software can get from a video game while still marketing itself as one. I have no issues with the storytelling - but I also would have liked to have played an actual game while it was being told.

[–]I_am_not_Victor 1 point2 points ago

Besides what was already mentioned in this thread (Skyward Sword, Metroid Prime 3, Red Steel 2 and Conduit), there was also a great implementation in Godfather: Blackhand Edition. Besides the poiting which was flawed, the motion controls were awesome.

[–]grumbel 0 points1 point ago

The way I see motion controls right now: Still nothing more then an empty promise, as nobody has actually implemented them properly, both in hardware and in games.

The original Wiimote simply lacked the sensors for proper 1:1 position detection, it could guess at best. MotionPlus is better at guessing due to better sensors, but it's still just guessing, leading to all those calibration problems. PS Move can actually detect the position properly, but Sony forget to stick an analog stick on the thing, making it unflexible and unsuitable for a lot of games. It's also an add-on, thus nobody supports it properly.

All this leads to a situation where nobody actually bothers to build a game around motion controls. Even stuff like Zelda is really just Zelda + some motion gimmicks thrown in, not a new genre build from the ground up around motion controls.

I still see potential in motion gaming, I would love to see a heavily physics based game like JP:Trespasser to be implemented with motion controls. It could work and it could offer a far deeper level of interaction then a controller ever can. But the only way that this will actually happen is when the next generation of consoles all come with sophisticated motion controllers by default, so that the big AAA money can be thrown at motion controls without limiting to a small audience.

[–]guyanonymous 1 point2 points ago

Once I got used to the Razer Sixsense deal I picked up - I enjoyed playing through Portal 2 with it, but that's because it actually made sense to use...

Other FPS's though were/are a pain as it wasn't a great replacement for mouse/keyboard. It needs to be properly integrated in a way that's useful.

[–]zinco96 -1 points0 points ago*

cons of each motion control:

Wii: not very prescise (unless you use the motion plus), and it has way too much minigame "games", also lacks quantity of hardcore games (the wi-fi system is a crap, but that is not the case now.) and the control not as dangerous as pepole think, its only dangerous because pepole are FREAKING STUPID, because you can avoit a crapload of accidents by using the GODDAMN WRIST STRAP, all those accidents are because pepole are retarded enough to no wear the wrist strap, or special cases like: when the wrist strap "breaks", or when the person hits something/someone/himself/herself while wearing the wrist strap.

PS move: lack of games and its UGLY.

kinect: unprescise/difficult to make it prescise, also the lack of a physical control makes certain options, and it really lacks interesting titles (and hardcore titles aswell), yeah, kinect is fun, but i wouldn't spend 200 dollars just to play kinectmals or dance central, sure, if i had a motive to buy a kinect (aka a really good game.) , dance central (and other simple games) would be a nice addition to the game list.

"grail of motion gaming" would be a console with: the amount of games of the wii (but not having the bunch of generic minigame "games", and with better game producers), a physical control prescise as the PS move, and a camera with certain options (like kinect but much more prescise.) that mix both the control and your body.

[–]purekillforce 0 points1 point ago

The only game made better with motion controls was Res Evil 4 remake on Wii.

i think that speaks more about Res Evil's control scheme though, than motion controls.

Motion controls ruin what could be amazing games. Bad controls ruin what could be amazing games.

As long as games with good control schemes are made, companies can waste as much money on motion crap as they like. Just give me my proper games too!

[–]soupdawg 1 point2 points ago

Killzone 3 is awesome with the Move.

[–]thatguyfromcanada 1 point2 points ago*

It's still relatively new as a consumer commodity, hell even traditional controller-based games are barely 30 years old. I'll use film as an analogy here. There was a period of time from the 1880s, when film first developed as an artistic medium, to about 1920 called the "cinema of attraction", which is basically academic circlejerk talk to refer to movies that had no real artistic value and existed to show off the new medium/special effects of film. It was an exposition of what film could do, but not an in depth exploration of what films can make you feel. After about 30 years of development in 1920 (let's say 1917, for those cinephiles out there), films became increasingly accepted as viable art due to the influx of people who were capable of doing more than just using film technique, but interpreting and integrating abstract concepts such as logic, emotion and motivation with the technical production itself. I believe this is the transition video games are making now. We've demonstrated what games can do technically, and we're starting to explore what games can do for and to us as abstract expression. TLDR; just like film, video games are going through a " technical-extravaganza attraction as selling point" market into a more emotive and human-based motivation behind consumption, like movies, books, TV, artwork etc.

[–]slowro 0 points1 point ago

Thanks for some history about film, neat stuff.

[–]darkplumb90 -1 points0 points ago

Everyone wants it to die. Especially the Wii.
The Kinect has value outside of gaming and is the only innovative motion control at this point.

[–]ApolloHelix -1 points0 points ago

Motion controls, along the vein of Skyward Sword, open up a whole world of gameplay and character articulation that cannot be done with analog controls.

That game's combat is predicated on cutting angles (take that, Metal Gear Rising) and tactile, intuitive weaponry such as the whip and the beetle.

The problem is that not every franchise or style of gameplay can fit with motion controls so easily.

Shooters are actually simulating pressing buttons and triggers. That's not motion control compatible.

You couldn't play a strategy game with motion controls because that's not where the core gameplay lies.

This goes on for many genres, with only a select few actually suited to motion controls.

Sports, Music, Weapon-based action/adventure, Driving, Pointing

These are the genres that can take advantage of motion controlled games because they are based on motion. Everything else is tacked on and inorganic.

It's really very simple.

[–]stone500 -1 points0 points ago

I, like many on here, also own all three. I'll try and keep my thoughts short and simple.

Wii: Least preferable for me to use. Without the Wii Motion+, it's just not accurate enough to be worthwhile. With the Motion+ accessory, I'm always worrying about the calibration going off and having to recenter my cursor all the time (especially a problem with Skyward Sword). Doesn't provide worry-free 1:1 controls that would help it.

Kinect: It's pretty good for games that cater to it's strengths. Dance Central is a blast, as is Fruit Ninja, and kid-friendly games like Sesame Street: Once Upon a Monster has entertained my niece and nephews for hours. However, it's not really nice for hours and hours of playtime, and only really seems worthwhile for genres that you can't really play well with other platforms.

PS Move: This is probably my favorite, but Sony seems to not really be doing anything with it (where's Sorcery?!). I'm most impressed at how well it just works, and provides a much better 1:1 experience than the Wii. I bought Sports Champions and Eyepet just so I could show it off. The Move is the best alternative (but no replacement) to standard controls for shooters and some platformers, but still needs a killer app.

[–]CompactedPrism 0 points1 point ago

It could be groundbreaking, it's just that none of the big game companies want to take a big risk with it. We've seen several uses for kinect not for gaming, but nothing truly groundbreaking in gaming.

[–]zorudan 0 points1 point ago

It can be used for some interesting and innovative things. But at the same time it can be obnoxious and stressfull. I certainly doubt it will take over the entirety of games, but it can be a part of it. It works for some games and its popular enough that it doesnt look like its going to just vanish. I think its going to remain as a common but not universal thing, kinda like realistic graphics.

[–]derpsinspace 0 points1 point ago

I always wondered why Sony and Microsoft didn't launch their respective motion control add-ons with better games, after witnessing the launch of the Wii. It seems silly to me for both Microsoft and Sony to both think that 3rd party developers will take initiative in maximizing their hardware. Sure they released tech demo type games and shovelware games, but I think it would have been a worthwhile investment for both to get their in-house developing teams together to create games specific to their add-ons.

Can you imagine the Kinect launching with a Forza and Halo game, both created specifically with Kinect in mind? Or Sony's Move being released with a God of War, Uncharted, Jak and Daxter, Modnation Racers, or SOCOM, all with the Move solely in mind/needed? Not only would sales have probably gone up, but they would have shown third party developers that you can make great games with each respective motion controls.

I know this isn't really new thinking or innovative thought, but I feel that it needs to be restated when talking about introducing anything not "normal." Whether the console makers like it or not, 3rd party games are probably going to always be the driving force in the video game industry from here on out. Respectable, approachable developers (Bethesda, Valve, Rockstar, etc.) are the reason behind this. Because of this, the console makers need to do what they can to "sell" these developers on using their hardware. Kinectimals, Wii Sports, and Kung Fu Rider aren't going to do it.

[–]deuteros 1 point2 points ago

No idea if it's a fad or not but at this point I still have zero interest in motion controlled games.

[–]KittenMittns[S] 1 point2 points ago

Loving all the insight! Thanks r/truegaming

[–]KerooSeta 0 points1 point ago*

"Hardcore Gamers" hate it, "casual" audiences love it, Nintendo rakes in millions of dollars from it. I think that about sums it up.

To summarize even further: people on /r/truegaming might not like it, but it's apparently not just a fad.

EDIT: OH SHIT! I defended motion controls on /r/truegaming. I might as well delete my account, now...

[–]girigiri 0 points1 point ago

Played Child of Eden with the controller when it first came out as I was a massive fan of Rez on the dreamcast.

Enjoyable but not mind blowing.

Then I picked up a Kinect recently and the extra immersion that it gave me was amazing. It really added an extra layer to the game that you miss out on with just the controller. Very impressed overall with the Kinect although I wish there were more "hardcore" games available.

I also have the Move. It was fun for Dead Space Extraction but I havent found anything else that has really done much for me.

[–]darkesth0ur -1 points0 points ago

Dead.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points ago

Motion controls are total garbage, always have been and will continue to be for years to come. They are a gimmicky fad that does more to hinder usage than anything. The problem is that we NEED these shitty consoles with their shit interpretation(Wii) in order to progress to the next levels.