Late Game TvP: A Strategic Analysis

Vanchen998 · 3 months

Good post, I think you have to also look at how effective terran armies in small numbers though. Even if they can destroy drops in however many ways (HTs, DTS, 10+ warpins, etc) splitting your army to toss expos can be very profitable because they can be very cost efficenct vs low numbers of gateway

Servalpur · 3 months

I feel that lategame PvT is almost always a game of "who fucks up first", and very rarely a game of "he pulled off this brilliant tactic". Just a short list of what can end the game:

If I let my HTs clump and you emp or snipe them.
If you get too aggressive with ghosts and my colossi kills them
If you blanket emp my zealots and I choose to engage (this one is a bit trickier and more dependent on positioning, but I still think it's relevant)
If I let my colossi get too far forward
If you let your vikings get into stalker range

I could go on and on, and these were all examples from just the large final battle so often seen in PvT lategame. The Protoss generally has the advantage in this situation because of two main reasons: Splash damage and warpgates.

We all know P has weak gateway units initially because if they were on par with the other races tier 1/2, Toss timing attacks would be unstoppable. It's because of this that P is so reliant on splash damage, specifically colossi and HT.

Terran doesn't have to worry about that. The combined DPS on an MM ball is huge, and so most T players just go Bio against protoss, which generally works fine.

However in a situation where Terran is slightly ahead after a large battle, lategame it favors Protoss because warpgate allows near instant regeneration of some forces (generally zealots and HT). The zealots tank and do some damage to the approaching forces, while the HT gather energy (and often a good Toss will leave one or two HT behind before a battle anyway).

One or two HT can shut down a small attack if the Terran fails to micro correctly, so they're a very potent force, often enough to give a Toss enough time to build a second army and be ready to fight another battle again.

tl;dr? Toss often has the advantage lategame in the situation you described, because of the very reason Toss is so weak early game. Being reliant on splash damage to supplement weaker tier 1/2 units means those splash units need to be very strong. One or two splash damage units can be enough to turn the tide against the Terran.

Hope this doesn't come out as garbled as it does in my head, just took some percocet =/.

Nadril · 3 months

It's an interesting discussion. Few comments though:

Let’s start with micro, once toss has the deadly double tech tree composition, all he needs to do is put his main army in a good position and 1a leaving him relatively free to storm at will while his zealots tank and colossus do their thing. You should target down vikings with stalkers, but in my opinion just putting your stalkers in a good position is good enough if in return you can get one or two good storms off (even if you don't keep all your colossi alive it's not game ending).

Sometimes you can get away with this. You are ignoring the fairly prevalent "dance" that goes on between the high templar's and ghosts though.

Given it's a bit more dangerous for the Terran but on the other side if the protoss doesn't split and use his high templar's well than you are missing out on a very important part of your composition.

Finally coming to my last major point now, the ability to deny drops late game. One of Terran’s greatest strengths is the relative ease of dropping and splitting a slow moving toss army. Late game however, most good Toss’ leave a HT few cannons at each expansion which all but neuter drops. In order for drops to be effective Terran needs to commit a good amount of his army to drops, in response Toss can simply force the large engage and roll.

I used to have a lot of issues with drop play myself. These days the hardest part is when you get to a 4+ base situation as protoss. Since many times you are maxed out on units (or close) you can't really warp in units for defense in outer bases.

It takes a bit more to drop outer bases (gotta watch out for cannon/HT combo) but a medvac of marine/marauder can destroy a nexus pretty fast.

I feel like the match up is just way too focused on that one large engagement right now. You miss an emp, you lose. You get your HT's emp'd, you lose. You fight into a slightly poor position, you lose.

As a protoss I'm not sure what could be changed to the match up. Right now it is my best match up but a few months ago it was my worst. I feel like the match up is difficult to balance because of how easily one side can just roll over the other if you don't have a perfect unit composition or control.

I do feel like Terran need to play TvP like a lot of protoss currently play PvZ. Granted protoss do it for a different reason (worried of just letting zerg get to mutalisk harassment) but the idea is similar. You need to put on early pressure because if you let your opponent do whatever they want they will just roll over you.

Much like PvZ I feel like in TvP the burden of harassment is on the Terran. If you just "let" the protoss get double upgrades, an early third and strong tech you get yourself in trouble. Likewise in PvZ if you just "let" the zerg get a lot of mutalisks (in which case they just contain you) the game becomes much more difficult.

And it's not even that it is impossible to win a macro game (in either match up) but more that it is just much more difficult to control it. In PvZ defending against mutalisk is much more difficult than mutalisk harassment. In TvP dealing with a late game engagement is much more difficult than a protoss dealing with the engagement.

SenorJiang · 3 months

I fully agree with this, as I have come back to steamroll a Terran despite being down a base and 40 supply. Large collosus counts can become a pain for Terran as they must commit time, and supply, to building vikings instead of medivacs and more units. Like you said, after Vikings deal with the Collosus, they are relatively useless, although they can land. Collosus have huge DPS and with storm and archons the Terran army is usually too small to really stand a chance.

NoseKnowsAll · 3 months

The only true way to take advantage of this however (in the late game - because that's where we are restricting our attention in this post), is to multi-drop everywhere. One drop will get destroyed by a default toss warpin. But one drop in the main, one drop at the natural, and one drop at the third together will reign havoc on a toss player who sees a drop and thinks to kill it by warping in a round of units.

The problem with this tactic is that it leaves you very vulnerable to counter attack because you're now down 3 medivacs worth of units plus those medivacs and most likely one medivac will get sniped instantly anyway. I would suggest then that as soon as any mid map epic battle happens and terran comes out ahead, your first instinct should not be to try to attack into a rebuilding toss ball, but to attempt a triple to quadruple drop of sorts. This appears to me to be the only way to take advantage of a "won"-ish battle.

Regardless, I agree with all points you've made except the fact that drops will be sniped by cannons. A toss will not build cannons until maxed, and if their maxing at the same time as toss, then this won't happen. Late game terran players should not sit at home once maxed in order to let a toss do this as well as build 25+ gateways. You should attack as soon as you're maxed because a bank will only help toss - not you.

joedude · 3 months

The only "problem" i see is that protoss have a MUCH easier time recovering/retreating out of a bad engagement.

Odinsama · 3 months

I think Terran has the advantage in the lategame theoretically, but not in practice. If played perfectly your ghost will always emp his templars before they can feedback/storm, your vikings will always take down the collosus before they can do significant damage because the protoss needs to be low on stalkers, and if he isn't low on stalkers the maurader medivac of the terran is going to roll the protoss. the problem is that nobody is perfect and the storms will hurt and the feedbacks will kill and the vikings wont always be in perfect position.

Drizzteh · 3 months

I feel like the true problem is that when both are 3/3 you really can't have too many marines, otherwise storms Colo and Archons decimate you. Marauders can partially kite zealots, but they barely dps them. You're almost forced to go down a counter productive army composition. When toss gets to 4-5 base they also get a lead, because of lean zealots and ht. Being a very solid gas dump. Marauder hellion works decently, but you'd need to upgrade mechanical all game. What they need to do is make tanks do more damage to light, but only with scaling upgrades, so early tank pressure doesn't become even better. /rant

abrakasam · 3 months

Also, I think this comes down to terran being the one who has to be aggressive during the mid game, the terran needs to do some damage to stop the protoss from getting his collosus, HT, archon, etc deathball. Timing attacks when trying to go up the other tech tree (collasi vs HT) do wonders

DarthCaesar · 3 months

Very good analysis, pretty much spot-on. I've reviewed some of MMA's games TvP because this matchup is very difficult and he typically makes a maximum of around 55 SCVs because TvP is often a one-engagement matchup so a bigger army is, needless to say, better.

sushicakes · 3 months

I would also add that terrans have a hard time dealing with late game warp prism warping in mass chargelots (oftentimes with an upgrade lead) to abuse terran immobility and unit spawning mechanic.

That being said, terran advantage in the mid-game is arguably bigger than protoss late game advantage.. One missed crucial forcefield = gg. Stalkers slightly out of position to defend drop = gg. Don't have enough AOE units out in time for big bio push = gg.

Lastly, I think this is the most significant terran early-mid game advantage at masters level: If terran scouts protoss 1 or 2 base all in, there is no reason the terran shouldn't crush the all in (7 gate, void ray, dts, 1 base mass immortal, etc.). If protoss scouts a properly executed 111 or marine/tank/scv all in, then protoss STILL has a win/loss coinflip even if protoss reacts properly.

TL;DR: the game is asymmetrically balanced across early/mid/late game.

Bennetting · 3 months

Although I agree with your assertion that Protoss is easier to micro, i think you fail to grasp why Protoss micro is easier. It's a little more difficult to micro your army as protoss because warping in reinforcements, especially in offensive situations takes a great deal of your attention away from your army.Terran can still produce while keeping a full eye on their army.

m_darkTemplar · 3 months

You should play the Protoss side of it more, there's a huge Terran bias on this. Specifically on what you think the Protoss has to do during the game.

During a battle, it's hard to get a storm off, templar are ridiculously slow, 1aing into a bio force will actually generally go very poorly, a kiting marine marauder force will be far more cost effective than a Protoss army. You need guardian shields, force fields, good spreading, blink your stalkers, target fire the vikings, avoid the ghost EMPs, feedback, storm, pull back at intelligent times, etc.

bobide · 3 months

First of all, very well written I'm glad you took the time to do this its a great post!

The hard part of in TvP you explained(colossus + templar) I see being fixed by adding in siege tanks instead of vikings to keep the colossus back while you emp or to target down colossus in major engagements. Siege tanks do lack the sniping power that vikings have but as time goes on and protoss players get better at keeping their colossus safe it seems unnecessary to me.

Supernova is a good example of this

Echo_ · 3 months

I was a Masters Random player until a couple weeks ago when I finally chose Terran (technically on the ladder I'm still listed as Random).

I chose it because it was fun, had the best matchups IMO and was very micro-intensive which I really liked. I say this because I think it gives me a little credibility and also shows that I've been on both sides of this.

TvP is the biggest heartbreaker of them all. Warp-in. Storm. Colossus and Chargelots a-moving. Warp Prism at 200/200.

The bottom line is, Terran bio micro is harder than any Protoss micro.

Yes, my MMM has a lot of DPS. Your storm kills any marines in its radius in just short of 3 seconds, and my marauders are left with 25 health if they sit in it for 4 seconds (4 seconds = ~2 seconds real-life time). I don't know what to tell you if you don't think anti-Storm micro is the hardest micro in the game.

I'm also curious why people think that the "early game T advantage" is significant at all, or has anywhere near the same advantages as P in the late-game. My PvT winrate was about 90%. I used force fields. If you are dying to a stim/medivac timing I'm sure it is you mis-playing or not paying attention. A ton of Protoss, even mid-high masters, think they are FF'ing correctly. They aren't.

All of this builds to frustration. I honestly want to know what I can do vs. Protoss. I know multi-pronged drops are a good way to brute-force a win, but that seems like a temporary relief, especially since HT and warp-ins are very good at stopping drops. I honestly pray that someone will read this post and tell me what to do. It is my belief pure-mech won't work, especially Siege tanks. Maybe Thors?

I really don't want to go into balance too much because I honestly don't know how to fix it, and don't want to pretend like I do. Increase P upgrade cost? Ghost EMP radius increased? I'll let someone else go into the analysis for me.

Sorry for the "rant," but it felt good to type out my frustration.

Good post BTW. I don't think it was too biased at the core of it.

G_Morgan · 3 months

I spend a few months playing Skyrim and suddenly Terran can't beat Protoss?

Did they remake the game? Or is this all down to the EMP nerf?

ssoda · 3 months

I think TvP is very balanced mu currently and that people are over reacting a little bit with the whole "late game toss is unbeatable" thing. The only problem i have with the mu is where the fight itself takes place. If I fight near my base and I lose barely, he floods with zealots and a lot of the time, I lose right there. If I fight near his base and barely win, I can't really do anything because 20 chargelots come out of no where and clean up my army. So I've found that whenever I win an engagement I do a couple of things.

This is really important! SCAN robo to see if hes still building/continuing colossi production. This will let you know if you need more vikings because usually they die every fight
Take back map control/xel nagas and drop exterior bases. If you win a fight heavily enough, you can go around killing bases but drops are still annoying for toss to deal with if you don't feel confident with your leftover army.
Secure your own expansions
But the most important thing is to not throw away your army after you win a fight. There is nothing wrong with winning a fight and not counter attacking. Sit back, expand everywhere and build up another max army.

There comes a point where you just can't counter attack toss anymore because they have a sick bank and production. But I really feel that a 200/200 terran deathball should beat toss 200/200 every time, so you have to start harassing their expansions and keep winning fights until they have no more money to support re maxing. Nuke drops become really effective at this time because ghosts can cloak and regular drops can just get cleaned up by warp ins. Of course all of this is assuming you don't just steam roll their army, I'm only talking about close engages.

Revsoda-1100 point master just for anyone wondering.

DarKcS · 3 months

I'm a masters Zerg that just switched to Terran for a change. And I've been focusing on learning TvP the last two days. After a mere couple days, I've already come to the 99% the same conclusion that the OP has dicussed. Dealing with the dual tech tree with the right units is basically the decider. IF you drop the second you get medivacs and the toss pushes, it becomes a base race/insta-lose situation, because you have no MMM ratio, ofc we see an equal amount of Protoss's (specially in GSL) lose if they don't timing push to double drops, even without army engagements, and then finally double drops + army engagements, because they get split, but if we are talking about that very fine timeline where Terran CAN drop and the Toss can deathball push before it, it's a very volatile outcome. But hey, if anyone has any suggestions to alter the matchup, feel free to post them.

Knocker456 · 3 months

I agree with most of what you've said and I have something to add.

I think with any army comp there should be a trade-off between mobility and power. I think it's fair for the Terran bio ball to be more mobile but less powerful than the Protoss collo/storm death ball. I think the answer should be that Terran have an alternative composition that is also slow and powerful, perhaps even slower and more powerful. Hmmm...what could that be? Duh, mech.

I'm not saying mech is viable, slower and more powerful. I don't think there's been enough experimentation on the subject to find out. I don't know if there's any viable way to open mobile bio and then switch into powerful mech, but that's how I would like to see the matchup played: You're either going bio for mobility, mech for power, or one into the other.

This is how I play ZvP (I'm masters random, btw). I like to open with roaches / mutas for mobility attacking and attacking opportunities. I try to keep the Protoss busy whilst I tech to slow and powerful brood lords so that I may be capable of engaging a Protoss death ball directly.

I just feel the terran bio ball has been so effective for so long we've forgotten the factory can be useful for things other than a scout :)

[deleted] · 3 months

I would just mention that scanning for observers following your army is incredibly crucial, at least from my standpoint as a Protoss player. Often when I'm facing Terrans in the late game, if I have an observer following their army around I can get a good idea on their positioning and their ghost count, plus it also allows me to be able to send individual templars up to feedback the ghosts.

Giblaz · 3 months

As a high diamond Terran who switched to Toss and am basically around the same ranking, I can't agree with this more. I used to QQ a shitload about late game Toss deathballs as Terran, and now I'm losing against Terran late game as Toss. It's pretty fucking frustrating and this one matchup has held me back from Masters for months...

VIPriley · 3 months

I feel like this post makes some really good points about the current matchup. On the other hand I think this post completely ignores different unit comps that we don't see from terran, that I think could increase the viability in the match up. While I'm no expert I think terrans can sometimes forget to try more late game tech that they have. Specifically I think BC's with yamato cannons could be more cost efficient in taking down colossus then vikings. In addition the BC is a much more useful unit after the fact and creates quite the disturbance on the battlefield in terms of being focused fired. In addition ravens and banshees may also be useful late game against toss. I just don't think ghost, viking and mmm is the best unit comp a terran can use versus toss. The toss player has archons, templar, colossus in addition to the basic gateway army and therefore has a lot more tier 3 tech that can be countered more effective if ball is allowed to shrink in place of more air units.

invisibleman4884 · 3 months

No matter what race I play as I always feel like my units are made of paper and the other guys units are made of steel. I am a dedicated protoss player, so my view is that zerg and terran are op. ;).

mmkramer · 3 months

Hey Default,

I already spoke with you briefly about this on facebook but here are my thoughts about Terran's issues in macro TvP:

Double tech tree Protoss is very strong, definitely, but part of what makes that so strong is that it's quite often two tier 3 vs only one tier 3 for the terran. Colossi + HTs vs just MMM + vikings? Protoss will win that easily with storms DPS. Or MMM + ghost and no vikings? Same thing, the colossi will do far too much splash damage for the Terran to have any hope of winning.

So why is it so frequently 2x tier 3 vs single tier 3? Simple - many Terrans are getting their second tier 3 too late. A ghost academy costs 150-50 - that's basically a marauder and a marine, which is very cheap. Mobius reactor? 100-100. A Protoss usually starts his second tech around the 12:00 mark, yet many Terrans don't start ghost production until WAY later - like the 15:00 mark. If you start your ghost production earlier, then you are pretty much guaranteed a few ghosts with energy at the time he could have storm. What if he's not going HTs + storm? Well, that's even better for you - ghosts are never going to make your army worse vs Protoss. Even producing ghosts 1 at a time, you can have 3 ghosts at the 14:00 mark with enough energy for around 4-5 EMPs. That's an entire row of Protoss units!

What about 2x forge? Well, qxc said it better than I can:

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/o6v66/good_post_by_qxc_about_the_protoss_double_forge/

The problem Terrans have in macro games is not related to balance, simply timings - Protoss have things a little more figured out, and are generally not missing a beat with upgrades, tech switches, and production. Terrans just need to make sure that they are keeping up with that by doing them on their own at an appropriate time. Ghost academy should go down at 12 minutes, second starport + reactor on factory shortly after the 3rd, etc

andord · 3 months

How is Terran micro harder?

You start off by using an instant area spell, EMP, with focus on High Templar/Sentry.
You target fire 4 of the biggest ground units (colosi) with vikings.
You stim and do the most basic micro with your bio ball, stutter step, to simultaneously kite chargelots and storms.

Protoss

Pre-engagement spreading your entire army, that continuously clumps up while moving, with focus on spreading High Templars to minimize EMP damage. This alone is more demanding then anything the Terran has to do, if you don't think so, go try it with a 200/200 army while moving around. It has a very high skillcap considering you could potentially, but unrealistically, reduce emp damage one to one. How good you can do this can have a dramatic impact on the fight.
Guardian shield and positioning the sentries so as much of the army as covered as possible.
Storm
Feedback (requires you to click on small units that are clumped up in a ball with MM)
Target Fire Vikings with stalkers.
Kite back the Vikings with Colossi to minimize damage and allow stalkers to blink underneath them/target fire.
Blink Micro
Turn Templars into Archons when energy is depleted.

"1a"

Good Protoss have their Zealots/Archons/Sentries on one hotkey, Stalkers on one hotkey, Collossi on one hotkey and Templars on one hotkey.

The reason being is to keep the positioning of the different units in the army in accordance with their role/unique abilities:

Zealots, Archons are short range tanks and forcefield needs to be casted as early as possible.
Stalkers go behind as they're the medium range damage dealers and weaker then Zealots.
Templars are near the back as they are priority targets.
Collosi stay at the back because of their superior range and priority.

Abilities: Guardian shield, Force field, Hallucination, Blink, Storm, Feedback.

Now compare this to Terran:

One big ball that can go on 3 hotkeys (mmm, ghost, viking). Terran can get away with this because of how easy it is to nullify storms through emp/snipe and even if few go off, they can be moved out of.

Abilities: Stim, Emp, Snipe.

"I welcome all constructive criticism and am open to the possibility of me being wrong. I am also worried about me being possibly-Terran biased."

I think you are very wrong and biased because you only play Terran. I'm a high masters Protoss/Terran/Zerg player and I do sound protoss-biased in my post because Protoss units/army do actually need more control and management then Terran units/army.

Terran don't generally need a lot of micro, the hardest it gets is splitting against banelings (which is indeed hard). But they have harder macro and potential need for mutli-tasking. This is intentional by design, trying to argue otherwise is simply biased/elitist, which is very common among Terran players it seems and I expect a lot of downvotes because of this.

Lewan72 · 3 months

Although you bring out some good points, there is a bit of bias. Never ever say "all he has to do then is 1a", this is such an ignorant and false statement.
1. you are forgetting the power of the orbital command. I don't think its needed to explain how good mules are especially late game. Also in late game where you have extra energy to spar scans can keep track of the enemy positions easily, while observers take up robo time, food, some gas, and is easily killable by one scan. 2. About the deniability of drops. First off, Why don't any terran users use PDD to attract cannon shots and then drop? This is used in TvT, why not TvP? 3. Ghost>Templar. EMP does its effect instantly, while storms you can move out of to avoid full damage. Along with that, Ghosts are faster, have more range, and can cloak which provide a great advantage over the templar. 4. Why doesn't Terran tech switch too? Protoss can't build immortals and collosis at the same time, so if protoss is forced into building immortals to counter thors or some tanks that means he can't build collosiss, and you won't have to build so many vikings and whatnot. BTW I think people give terran too much credit for being "well developed". I don't doubt that they aren't, but how long did it take for them to realize Ghost were good, or hellions or Ravens. How long have they been doing MMMV? I still think Ravens, thors, and banshees have more to figure out.

amateurtoss · 3 months

This is the type of "strategy" post that makes it to the front page of r/starcraft? A serial of complaints?

This is not a "strategic analysis". It doesn't talk about any strategies Terran should employ at all.

Daunteh · 3 months

I stopped reading at

The first being that Terran late game micro is harder than toss late game micro

mixxanber · 3 months

You're stupid, don't talk about balance if you're not gm, or even high masters. I hate when people who aren't good at sc keep trying to make analysis and theorycraft.

Terran don't have to have the perfect amount of vikings to deal with collosi, as overmaking vikings is optimal. A gateway army without collosi backup MELTS to emp and marauders. Also, any extra supply tied up in vikings is annulled by the fact that Terran should have less scvs than protoss because they have mules.

Stop talking about terran micro, all they have to do is a-move vikings and emp every damn thing. Stutter stepping is bad as the bio ball clusters up and loses its concave.

The hardest part for terran late game is that they HAVE to emp templar. I agree, that is really hard, but it is necessary, as 2 storms can wreck a bio ball.

tl;dr get better instead of talking on reddit.

Sabu113 · 3 months

Well you keep playing the harder race and beating those ezpz 1a Toss bro!

A lot of these assumptions are simply false. There's a reason why win rates are how they are. It's not because terran players are mechanical superstars.

Drops can still be super effective because that army is maxxed out and takes forever to get back into position. Because you still can force favorable trades for yourself.

The HT comments are interesting because you ignore how without those storms going off you will role that engagement /hard/. When toss rant that emp is better than storm, take a moment to shake that fist of yours and then take the bit of truth that emp is your storm and with mobius there's no reason you should be engaging without giving the opposing army a nice emp wash.

Lastly, there's something to be said for having a few spare bunkers lieing about if you're at that 200/200 point. That toss army is extremely expensive. Depending on how you trade you can actually be ahead on the remax.

After watching months of good or even better toss being rolled, the mythos and tone in the op is irritating.

OneBigFish · 3 months

Silly. terran op...

sickoota · 3 months

Terran harder to micro lategame? Is that a joke? Splitting High templar, flying around warpprism with high templar, forcefield, guardian shield, storm, target fire collossi on marines, target fire stalkers on vikings vs spamming emp + scoot and shoot + focus fire vikings on collossi yeah i dont think so

will999909 · 3 months

What league are you?

noscoe · 3 months

This is pretty accurate, the part about rogue tier 3 units is not however imo--seems a very small factor since the removal of amulet. A stray HT just warped in cant storm, and a stray collossus gets stimmed down very quickly without gateway support.

It is the difficulty of re-making terran tier 3 units (medivacs and vikings) and lack of static defense late game on the terran side. The remax vs remax is not as much as an issue because terran can also redesign their army slightly with the correct balance of marine vs marauder vs ghost vs viking vs medivac. The mid sized army remake is when things are really difficult for terran IMO. fighting a 50 supply army of the bare minimum gateway units to soak damage and the rest a variety of splash damage (archons, hts, colossus) is brutal, ghosts or not (also, vikings to confront collosus take as much money and supply as the collosus themselves, but have no utility outside of it unupgraded vikings landed vs 3/3 archons and zealots? lol). Have you ever tried fighting a few archons with a small group of units?

Protoss have learned how amazing lategame warp prisms and spread out pylons are, and planetary fortress or not a big swell of basic units at each expansion and in the main can stretch a terran as much as medivac drops--except terran doesn't have warp ins, feedback, and the mineral dump of cannons to assist.

For players of our level / not fucking gsl code S terrans, even in masters, the level we are "supposed to" snipe/emp HTs is fucking hard and leads to a HUGE advantage to protoss-- simply due to lack of required micro in order to not be at a disadvantage.

edit: and warping in a handful of dts and killing a planetary is pretty fucking ridiculous.

I would love to see a lategame available static defence for terran. upgrade to bunkers so it doesn't have to be manned and is more expensive (and only available far down the tech tree) is an example of something to address this, as bunkers work in the early game but are 100000% useless lategame outside of the occasional one at a stray orbital.

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