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What are your thoughts on the Presocratic philosophers? (self.philosophy)
submitted 8 months ago by IndianXC
Everything is water. Zeno's troll physics. Nothing changes. Everything changes. The atomists...
[–]brancron 13 points14 points15 points 8 months ago
I'm down with Heraclitus.
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
I will never drink the same beer twice
[–]IndianXC[S] 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
74 . Pigs wash themselves in mud, birds in dust or ash. -Heraclitus
[–]SLNapster 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclitus
_^
[–]andrewsmith615 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
same. His first fragment is one of my favorite philosophical passages.
[–]IndianXC[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Why?
[–]THEgrape 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Read some of his fragments! He has very little around, and writes in a style that is basically poetic rather than prose. Takes an hour or two to read all of his stuff available, but it is pretty interesting.
Very dark, if you're into Nietzschean type stuff.
[–]liturgical_libertine 25 points26 points27 points 8 months ago
It sucks we have to call them presocratic, like they're just what happened before socrates, no big deal. But, they are a big deal, a huge fucking deal. The "presocratics" set the stage for plato and socrates and the rest of ancient philosophy. There's obviously a lot going on in ancient philosophy, but you've got the highlights right. Parmenides is by far my favorite, someday I need to get around to writing something about Parmenides ontology and it's similarities to Heidegger, but I'm sure someone has already.
[–]cobaltage 15 points16 points17 points 8 months ago*
Have you read Heidegger's Parmenides? If not, you might find it to be highly gratifying. Heidegger also discusses a particular aspect of Parmenides' thought in "Identity and Difference".
[–]liturgical_libertine 14 points15 points16 points 8 months ago
oh god, no...I feel like an idiot.
[–]cobaltage 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
I wouldn't feel that way. It's one of the series of Heidegger's lecture notes that are being published these days. There are so many of them -- some with very similar titles and subjects -- that it's impossible to keep track. It's the very definition of how a philosopher can become a cottage industry. Nevertheless, the lecture notes series is a great resource for understanding Heidegger.
[–]liturgical_libertine 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
dang, I'll have to check them out.
[–]FluidChameleon 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
ahaha i hate it when that happens. last semester i wrote a term paper on derrida and patocka without realizing that in fact derrida wrote an essay about patocka.
[–]liturgical_libertine 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
[–]tomauty 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
Parmenides is my favorite too. While I guess the milesians were the first to introduce ideas about ultimate reality/the apeiron and arche, his expansions on the ideas of Anaximander etc. were insightful and beautifully written.
[–]JubBird 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Heidegger does a great job of reviving interest in them by closely analyzing various of their fragments in his Early Greek Thinking.
[–]Mr_Smartypants 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
It sucks we have to call them presocratic, like they're just what happened before socrates
Heh. Kind of like Metaphysics meant literally "the stuff Aristotle wrote after Physics."
[–]BreSput 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago*
Really Mr. Smartypants? I always thought it meant meta- (above) -physics (the physical). I.e. concerned that which was not physically grounded (or could be verified through experience).
EDIT: It would appear you are correct. My thought though is a pretty common post-hoc rationalization of the term though. That's pretty funny.
Thanks. I learned something interesting today.
[–]cuptea 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I think the "after" actually refers to where it stood on his "bookshelf" -- it was "after" or further along from what he wrote on physics. Like you had to walk further to pick it off the shelf. I remember a prof saying so anyways.
[–]pencechp 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
It refers to the way the "books" were gathered together in one of the early collected Greek versions of Aristotle's work. There were the Physica, which Aristotle himself seems to have named (or perhaps which the collector, Andronicus, felt confident to describe), and then there was this chunk of unnamed books that were the next few after those. "Ta meta ta physica biblia" -- the ones that come after the physics books.
For Aristotle himself, of course, they're either "first philosophy," "the science of being qua being," or something else like that.
[–]Mr_Smartypants 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I always thought it meant meta- (above) -physics (the physical). I.e. concerned that which was not physically grounded (or could be verified through experience).
It does now, but it didn't always!
I'm slowly realizing their massive importance as table setters. This semester they were thrust before me and as an unprepared reader I couldn't help but think that most of their fragments were lunacy.
[–]cobaltage 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago*
The Pre-Socratic philosophers are very important for understanding the origins and foundations of Western thought in general. In their work, it is possible to glimpse the way in which philosophy and science arose out of (i.e., away from or in contradistinction to) mythical thinking through a series of "foundational insights": that "thought and being are the same", that all being is one, that all appearance is constituted out of a unitary, irreducible principle or component, that all is in flux and that no thing repeats itself as such, that every thing is number and has its own number. It's probably worthwhile to get a good explanatory text about them if you're interested. Since their work has persisted only in fragmentary form, the way in which they are interpreted by others has a lot to do with our understanding of them. A grasp of Pre-Socratic thought helps one to understand not only Plato and Aristotle, but also Hegel, Nietzsche, Heidegger, Cassirer, and Gadamer, among others -- all of whom re-inserted ancient Greek thought into modern philosophical discourse in one way or another.
In my opinion, it is relatively easy to differentiate philosophical work that references only contemporary ideas from work that recognizes and pays tribute to the overall historical tradition of philosophy. Many concepts used in contemporary philosophical arguments, that today are naively taken in their concrete meaning as somehow self-evident and justified by science, have their origin in purely ideal postulates that, in their original, Pre-Socratic form, would strike most modern thinkers as bits of quasi-mystical nonsense. However, in many respects, our modern way of thinking is the manifestation of goals set out by the Pre-Socratic thinkers.
[–]ExtraGravy 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
I wish we knew more about them.
[–]pimpbot 8 points9 points10 points 8 months ago
Frankly, it's a shame that more of their work did not survive. Philosophy is well served by remembering that, as a discipline, it isn't immune to the dictum "history is written by the victor". There are threads of a counter tradition one can detect in their writings, like those of Heraclitus for example, that stand in stark contrast to the dominant Platonism and Aristotelianism that was broadcast throughout the dark ages by Christian scribes and propagandists.
[–]IndianXC[S] 10 points11 points12 points 8 months ago
I lay awake at night fantasizing about going back and putting out the fire at Alexandria or touring the Greek countryside as a reverse Johnny Appleseed for manuscripts.
I don't get a lot of sleep.
[–]m0rd3c4i 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I dream about rebuilding Alexandria as a sort of world-heritage neutral zone.
...It's a sort of messiah complex at this point.
[–]ScannerBrightly 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
If you want, you can use my phone booth to go back there, but I found they don't understand out language.
[–]Mofeux 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Did you try sticking the fish in your ear?
[–]Qwill2 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
Fragmentary.
[–]MoonDaddy 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I am very interest. Does anyone have an audio link for some Pre-Socratic stuff? I want to listen to it in between my regular readings (which only involve post-Socrates).
[–]Pollinosis 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Check these out: http://podcast.ulcc.ac.uk/accounts/kings/Philosophy_podcasts.xml
[–]Thelonious_Cube 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
What's the best intro book on the presocratics?
[–]IndianXC[S] 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Readings in Ancient Greek Philosophy has most of the available fragments.
[–]ladiesngentlemenplz 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Kirk, Raven, and Schofield seems to be the standard. Mourelatos is great if you can find a copy.
[–]laszlojamf 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Coplestone's History of Philosophy I on ancient greek philosophy covers them all pretty concisely.
[–]Ishmael999 -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Bertrand Russell's History of Philosophy devotes a nice piece of itself to the Presocratics if I remember correctly.
[–]Thelonious_Cube 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
I remember Russell as being a bit too opinionated for my tastes
[–]Ishmael999 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
He certainly doesn't spare his opinions. Personally I enjoy it, but I can see how it could chafe on a lot of people.
[–]dinolexi 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Are you at UPEI?
West Point
apparently they teach/ask to discuss the same things at the same time.
[–]AmoralRelativist 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Anaximander is my personal favorite, I wrote my capstone for my "Ancient Philosophers" class on comparing his concept of "the infinite" to the fundamental tenants of Taoism and tying both of those to the Heideggerian concept of "aletheia".
[–]AutoBiological 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I never really read the presocratics fragments. I did read a bit of Heraclitus, maybe some Parmenedies but that's it. Most is all second source information.
[–]Pation 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Parmenides reminds me that you can figure out the nature of the universe no matter your position in space or time. You'll find that his philosophy aligns quite well with that of many other 'advanced' philosophies. It's just a matter of recorded ideas.
[–]couldyousaythatagain 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I stumbled on this while browsing jstor.
Popper basically says that we can find a simpler, more open kind of critical thinking in these early discussions.
[–]thedaemon 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
My favorite being Zeno of Citium, which you so kindly poke fun at. Without which I would never have read any of Marcus Aurelius' works, which have changed my life. Many of the old ideas can be lost to someone who take a translation as 100 percent correct and literal. You have to have the wisdom to interpret and think about their ideas before you can have a real grasp on them. Learning lots of philosophy in school is not a way to take them in. Study your favorite one or ones after you graduate. Maybe in a few years some of it will click with you. Most of the things I find so interesting is that many of the ideas that we have now have had to been rediscovered or rethought of as we've done it before. For instance knowing that the earth is round.
[–]Josefio 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Heraclitus is my favorite presocratic. He speaks in riddles. In fact, they called him Heraclitus the Obscure. Once you decode the riddle, what he says makes a lot of sense . . . but, at the same time it doesn't. You'll understand if you read him.
[–]BioSemantics 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
They probably existed.
[–]skobywan 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Hermes Trismegistus was great. Not sure if he qualifies though.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
I thought the Hermetic writings were post-Socratic?
[–]skobywan 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Some of them are, some of them are based on older Egyptian philosophy by a God / Pharaoh called Djehuti / Thoth.
[–]Thelonious_Cube 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
...some of them are supposedlybased on older Egyptian philosophy ...
FTFY - there is very little (if any) reason to suppose that this is true.
[–]cuptea 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Hermes, The Thrice Great! What a name. I think this is only beaten by Paracelcus who was called: Philippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim.
[–]skobywan 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
For arrogance you can't beat Paracelcus :) Hermes the Thrice Great came from his supposed 3 incarnations into the flesh.
TIL. Ta.
My pleasure.
[–]jazzymaven 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Heraclitus FTW
[–]Nefandi -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 months ago*
Buddha, Lao Tzu are presocratic. Socrates is not the only wise man who's ever lived.
If you read some works of early Buddhist philosophers, they make Socrates sound like a child in a kindergarden. Socrates is still awesome, no doubt. But I wouldn't label everything before him as "pre-".
While you can say some of the early Buddhist philosophers are post-Socratic in terms of the time, they are not really post-Socratic because they are unlikely to have been influenced by Socrates. Buddha and Lao Tzu date prior to Socrates. Chuang Tzu is slightly later than Socrates but I highly doubt he's been influenced by Socrates in any way, so doesn't deserve to be called "post-" or "pre-".
[–]fmoralesc 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago
I doubt anyone says eastern philosophers are to be regarded as pre- or post- socratic. The "pre-socratic" label is meaningful mainly in the context of ancient Greece/Mediterranean.
[–]js2262 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
actually, lao tzu and buddha are pretty much active around the same time as socrates is: 5th century BCE, as part of the 'axial age.' and there's not much evidence for any specific early buddhist philosophers, other than the buddha himself, until around 300 BC,
[–]Nefandi 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Part of the problem is that even if the early philosophers were geniuses, we hardly have any records of them and their words are no better than the best we have now. In other words, philosophers were always at the same level. Philosophy never evolved. Some ideas go into popularity. Some go out. Those that came out go back in again. Etc. There is no evolution because all the philosophic ideas are timeless instead of being progressions.
For example, physicalism is popular now, but even though it was not popular around 500 BCE, there were plenty of physicalists around at that time. So physicalism simply came into vogue instead of being established as a succession of thought. Similarly non-physicalists went into retreat, but didn't disappear. Eventually we'll be back in vogue and physicalism will again be unpopular.
[–]Thelonious_Cube 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
... they make Socrates sound like a child in a kindergarden
It is my understanding that Socrates was more or less trying to sound like a child in kindergarten and ask intentionally naive questions about things people didn't usually question.
The fact that early Buddhist (or Hindu) philosophers came up with elaborate systems and explanations does not detract from what Socrates did - it was a different enterprise.
Peter Kingsley has an interesting book (Reality) that tries to argue that the western Socratic tradition and the Eastern tradition both grow out of the same pre-socratic roots.
[–]elcocovskly -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
The claims are funny! Aside from that, the presocratic philosopher are essential to the development. They, the presocratics, made revolutionary claims which would eventually spark the interest of later thinkers like scientists, mathematicians, artists, etc. I think they are as good as any other.
[–]BreSput -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Yeah, we no longer wonder if everything is water, but we still wonder if there's some fundamental entity of which everything is made.
[–]kierankyle -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 months ago
What are your thoughts on prehistoric Velociraptors?
All Velociraptors were presocratic. At least for now...
[–]kierankyle -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Clever girl...
all it takes is a username and password
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is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
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