Why do people get suicidal thoughts, can animals become suicidal?

thiefofjoy · 3 months

Although I can't speak directly to what causes suicidal thoughts in humans as this takes a great deal of psychological and medical perspective that I lack, I can speak to the presence of suicidal behavior in animals on a very basic level.

The pea aphid (Acyrthosiphon pisum), when parasitized by Braconid wasps, (Aphidius ervi) exhibit a cost sensitive suicidal behavior depending on both their reproductive contribution to their population and the probability of their spreading the disease to kin. Essentially what this means is that parasitized adults will become "suicidal" the cost of their life is exceeded by the risk to their immediate gene pool.

It is noteworthy, however, that the "suicidal behavior" is not the same as it would be for humans who are intent on killing themselves or larger animals that exhibit suicidal-like characteristics (there are numerous anecdotal accounts of Philippine Tarsiers committing suicide by bashing their heads against hard surfaces when in captivity or exposed to extreme stress). For the pea aphids, this suicidal behavior amounts to choosing more dangerous routes when escaping from their predators.

It becomes immediately apparent when reading more about accounts (confirmed and unconfirmed) of suicide in the wild that there is a large gradient with no clear division between what does and what does not constitute "suicide". I would expect that in each species, the reasons behind suicidal behavior are unique products of the evolution of their life history.

Two abstracts on the pea aphid and its parasite:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347205806761

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v328/n6133/abs/328797b0.html

mindwhirl · 3 months

I recently watched this TED talk which touches on a subject I believe to be relevant: http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html

In it Dan Gilbert talks about the human ability to simulate an experience in our mind to "predict" how we will feel about doing something. He talks about the human frontal lobe and in particular the prefrontal cortex being one of the most developed part of the brain since pre-homo sapiens.

His talk focuses on the use of this "experience simulator" primarily for things that make us happy, however I believe it is equally relevant to things which make us sad or afraid. He suggests we can learn to be happy purely by shaping our own artificial experiences. (Something some religions such as Buddhism have proclaimed to do for centuries)

My thoughts here are animals have a similar ability, albeit not as complex. A human can imagine what they might do on next weeks holiday resulting in feeling excited and happy about it. Animals are assumed significantly limited in how far ahead and to what degree they can "simulate" these activities in their mind. I think learned behaviour such as a dog doing a trick for a treat is essentially a simple version of this. Hence I believe animals have this capability at least to some extent.

When problem solving we use this simulation ability to a high degree. Someone suffering from depression or even just assessing options for a difficult problem may "simulate" suicide. With the simulation comes the artificial feelings attached to it such as sadness, helplessness, despair, shame, etc.. As a potential solution it can become more appealing as the mind grows more pessimistic and / or depressed.

To someone suffering from depression they face a seemingly apparent uphill battle for what seems like the rest of their life (the more depressed someone is, the harder it can be to picture being well again) or a brief amount of pain followed by eternal relief.

As someone who has suffered from long term depression this explanation / hypothesis has helped me make sense of my own depression and understand in some form of what is going on inside my head.

I have a growing belief this hypothesis is true in at least some extent in animals (particularly mammals). Think of the fox or wolf which would chew it's own foot off when caught in a bear trap for an extended period of time; The recent example of mice releasing their fellow captives before feeding, actions we perceive as empathy; Whales beaching themselves for seemingly no reason (perhaps they know or sense something we don't).

I think I may have rambled a little bit there but I hope I got across accurately enough what I intended.

ddunnpsyd · 3 months

Suicidal behavior can have multiple purposes. In its most original state, it is a coping mechanism to end both psychic and physical pain. People with Major Depression or other similar illnesses will feel as if they have lost control of their own body. It becomes extremely difficult for the person to go about a normal routine. Physical pain becomes present in severe cases of depression and presents as muscle fatigue. Suicide is an attempt to end pain in the individual.

The other end of suicidal behavior is that of secondary gains. The person acts out "as-if" they are going to commit suicide in order to be directly intervened on by others. The desire for intervention and attention varies greatly, but is always distressful for those involved. People who feign or act-out in suicidal ways often will not commit suicide when there is no secondary gain to be achieved. Unfortunately it isn't difficult for a person to go from feigning suicide to actually being in the first kind of suicide I described earlier. The other part of feigning is that a person often will actually carry out a long process intended to kill oneself and hoping to be rescued before time ends.

jgdx · 3 months

In Encounters at the End of the World by Werner Herzog anecdotal evidence suggest that individual penguins in the Antarctic sometimes head for the hills for no reason. A move that is certain death for any living organism.

They even taped one "suicide".

Certainly not scientific, but at least it's anecdotal evidence made by a scientist.

Ohang · 3 months

Animals absolutely commit suicide.

Take, for example, the bears that are harvested for their gall bladder bile.

random_89123 · 3 months

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luvcheez · 3 months

OHHH AWESOME TOPIC! I became OBSESSED with octopus and cuttlefish, and I remembered reading somewhere that if you have them as pets and don't stimulate their mind with interactions and puzzles, they will attempt to climb out of the water and let themselves dry out. suicide.

tldr:your octopus will kill itself if you don't play with it.

proof: http://www.tonmo.com/articles/octosuicide.php

[deleted] · 3 months

http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/op4jn/do_any_animals_have_suicidal_thoughts_or/

15 days ago.

bioluminescentaussie · 3 months

There's a documentary called The Cove, about the dolphin trade in Japan, part of it is about Flipper, which was played by several dolphins. One of the dolphins was said to have committed suicide in the trainers arms by not taking her next breath. Perhaps it is a human condition though, as it only seems to appear in animals afflicted with humanitis. Wild animals aren't prone to it, it seems to be the animals who are in captivity that do it.

Ranhoff · 3 months

flipper did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CyRLD2PmWHw

enthusiastic_amateur · 3 months

I am a Volunteer with Samaritans here in the UK.

When we talk to people who are feeling suicidal we often find that it is not one single event that has caused them to feel like they cannot cope with life, but more like a series of events that have taken their toll.

Take a look at the link - there is a simple model that describes what we term 'emotional health'.

At the top end of the scale, or just to the left is where most people are - at this point they have strength to cope with the knocks / crap stuff that happens. However a knock, like maybe losing your job, can cause a slight downward slide, this results in having less strength. If someone then experiences another knock, another downward slide occurs - leaving you with even less strength to cope. And so it goes on. It seems that for many people sliding down the scale happens a lot easier than fighting back up it.

When people are at the top end, or near it, it can be like driving a car at maybe 25 miles an hour - at this speed you are well able to take in everything happening around you, you can see shops that have a sale on, kids running down the street, the traffic lights ahead. We can cope with this easily. However, at the opposite end of the scale, it is more like driving at 100 / 120 MPH down a motorway - at this speed we get a tunnel vision type effect - we are concentrating hard on the lanes of traffic ahead, looking out for brake lights, cars changing lanes and not much else. It is the same with emotions, when people are in a low place it canbe that they only see all the crap stuff that has happened to them. It is all balled up, all the can see. It becomes overwhelming and with little strength left to cope it can seem like the e only escape from that mass of problems is to end their life.

http://www.samaritans.org/your_emotional_health.aspx

Edit

The following links back up my layman description. Please bear in mind, as a Volunteer I'm not a trained Counsellor, Psychologist etc!

https://dspace.gla.ac.uk/bitstream/1905/170/1/115.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027273581100002X

The first is peer review work carried out by Glasgow Uni and the second is research into resilience...

Hope this backs up my thoughts.

soupyshoes · 3 months

There is a LOT of anecdotal evidence been put forward here as hard science. Suicide does NOT occur in animals, by definition.

The main problem here is that people are defining 'suicide' as an outcome, not a procedure: Modern definitions of suicide (eg Marsha Linehan's or Rory O'Connor's) require "a purposeful intent to cease consciousness." As such, agressive and self harmful behaviour often emerges in captive animals, but functionally this is self stimulation and lacks a willful intent to die, as animals cannot construct the verbal behavior necessary to do this. The best conceptual explanation for this I have seen is Hayes (1992), "Verbal relations, Time and Suicide", chapter 7 of Understanding Verbal Relations.

Similarly, the self harming behaviour (eg eye gouging) that emerges in many intellectually disabled and autistic populations and can lead to death isn't suicide, by definition. If you do a search for suicidality in the severely or profoundly mentally handicapped, you'll see that it doesn't happen.

This is also illustrated by the example of smoking: most people are aware that it leads to cancer and death, but if you die from lung cancer its not suicide because there was no willful intent to cease consciousness. ,As such, it is instead considered low-level deliberate self-harm.

Edit: My PhD is in the prediction of self-harm and suicide.

FlamedPotato · 3 months

It's impossible to assess whether or not an organism has a suicidal tendency due to the sole fact that we have no idea how the animal is feeling since there is no means to communicate with the animal. However, it is believed that emotions such as sorrow is felt in many other animals with a large capability of behaviour such as mammals, birds, etc, and if humans show suicidal behaviour, then there is a likely chance that AT LEAST one other species shows the same behaviour.

RyeTheBread · 3 months

Animals CAN become suicidal. There is a virus called Borna virus that causes animals to injure themselves to the point of death. In 2009 scientists mapping the human genome discovered the Borna virus in the human genome and that it is theorized this retrovirus may likely be responsible for mental illness (like bi-polar disorder and schizophrenia). Our common simian ancestors were likely infected about 40 million years ago and the virus has now become a part of our DNA (similarly to the same virus that caused us to become placental mammalians).

It's highly likely that your suicidal thoughts are because of an ancient virus expressing itself in your brain.

Here are some interesting and easy-to-read articles about the topic:

"Borna Virus Discovered in the human DNA": http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/science/12paleo.html?pagewanted=all

"Viral Gene in Mammalian Reproduction": http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=viral-gene-appears-crucia

Borna Virus antibodies showing up in patients with mental illnesses: http://www.neurotransmitter.net/bornavirus.html

"Borna Disease": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borna_disease

wolf156 · 3 months

Flipper committed suicide.

FBoaz · 3 months

Dolphins have been known to commit suicide. One of the flipper dolphins actually killed itself. I've seen several TILs about it.

infsmwetrust · 3 months

What you're describing is suicidal ideation. It is extremely common in adolescents, even in those without depression or mental disorders.

Also, there is a difference between simple ideation and serious ideation. If these thoughts are bothering you, even if you have no desire to kill yourself, it wouldn't be a bad idea to see a therapist. Sometimes what's troubling is not the ideation itselfm but your thoughts and self-judgments about the ideation.

edit: didn't mean to imply that you were an adolescent, but that it was particularly prevalent in that population. Its prevalence is high in certain occupations, as well.

linuts · 3 months

Ric O'Barry, a/the Flipper trainer, believes that dolphins and whales have the ability: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/whales/interviews/obarry2.html

ScurvyDervish · 3 months

Dogs can be trained to be hopeless.

kingsway8605 · 3 months

I have heard stories if dolphins and whales in captivity exhibiting self harm behaviors.

CaptObviousOnTheJob · 3 months

Lorises and chameleons are often claimed to commit suicide. Scientists claim that the folk belief about chameleons is related to the fact that their judgement is impaired by long droughts and that they fall to their deaths as a result of careless climbing, not intention. Lorises are thought by some to kill themselves under extreme stress but I don't know what the alternative explanations are.

toxiccrusader · 3 months

People get suicidal thoughts because it relieves stress a little bit. It makes them feel like they have options opposed to feeling like you have no control over circumstances life gives you. I'm not sure if animals commit suicide, but I'm sure given the right amount of stress, their brain could "short circuit" making their will to live a lot weaker.

emwtur · 3 months

oh my god, - the goldfish just jumped out of the window.

Dialaninja · 3 months

I recommend Emile durkheim's Le Suicide. He breaks down the different forms off suicide, and posits his thesis as to why people kill themselves (at least in certain parts of europe) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(book)

His view is sociological, finding that suicide occurs as a result of social pressures.

cookmybook · 3 months

Why neglect the semicolon?

topcat512 · 3 months

zoo animals that aren't treated well can become suicidal and depressed.

trevorvalentine · 3 months

I once sprayed a scorpion with Raid and while it was writhing in pain, it started to stab itself in the head. It was horrifying--the thought that I didn't cause a quick death, and the thought that an insect had the mental capacity to think to kill itself to end its suffering.

Hyatt03 · 3 months

I once saw a chicken commit suicide...

Stewmeat95 · 3 months

Dolphins in captivity have committed suicide before, they have to consciously think about breathing, its not automatic. So they can just choose to not breath again. The first dolphins kept at seaworld i believe committed suicide.

watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyRLD2PmWHw

givetake · 3 months

Domesticated rabbits are known to exhibit signs of depression so severe that it can kill them. Ignorant people buy baby bunnies for their kids at easter not realizing what a responsibility they are and relegate the rabbit to a solitary confinement in a cage outside with infrequent "play" time that usually consists of being chased and terrified by young children.

Neglected rabbits experience decreased or irregular appetite due to depression from such a lifestyle and often die because of their fragile digestive systems (they are lagomorphs and rely on a fine balance of cecotropes in their digestive tract) where a neglected pet with a heartier digestive system (like a dog or a cat) may keep on surviving, given enough food and water.

brianwilsonsdad · 3 months

I see a lot of questions about how animal psychology relates to that of a human. For anyone with these types of questions, might I recommend Temple Grandin's "Animals in Translation"? She addresses this and many other questions about why animal brains work the way they do. But you don't have to take my word for it!

That_Dog_Wont_Hunt · 3 months

Coming up next: Can bees think?

A new study indicates that no, they cannot.

NotGonnaPayYou · 3 months

Isn't the fact that we as humans have an enormous pre-frontal cortex an explanation for such thoughts? As far as I remember, it helps us simulate trial-and-error scenarios without having to actually conduct them (resulting in "insight"-learning, see Wolfgang Köhlers research on primates) which is an ability that seems quite rare (if at all present) in animals. That way we can simulate killing ourselves and later evaluate the potential outcome (in case of a depressive patient this would be a positive evaluation), which is obviously not possible if you actually "try it out". That leaves the question why greater apes do not commit suicide. Well first of all, their prefontal cortex - which is also responsible for social interaction etc. - is not as dominat as ours. It is believed by some researches that what we call "consciousness" is a side-effect of this cognitive system. As a consequence, some researchers belief that humans are the only animals who know that they will die eventually. You could also consider this a prerequisite for suicidal thoughts.

bedlamos · 3 months

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments, I have a better understanding now. This is a very interesting topic!

secretgspot · 3 months

it's been heard of terminally sick dogs walk into traffic in order to be killed

ClysmiC · 3 months

I remember a story where a bear killed itself and its cub after being mistreated at a bile farm

http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Asia/Story/A1Story20110805-292947.html

scottie_holtsclaw · 3 months

Has anyone mentioned Overtoun Bridge yet? it's a bridge where dogs have been known to leap to their death, several of dogs have done this.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtoun_House

Tr3v3336 · 3 months

Yes they can.

Votesareno · 3 months

Can happen to animals but since they don't have media/journalists nor politicians nor religion to fuck with their minds it's much more rare.

(worded snide but making a real point)

ptcjstc1984 · 3 months

We experience suicidal thoughts when death seems preferable to life. It may be an experience or a lifetime of them that pushes us over the edge, but suicidal thoughts can also be caused by chemical imbalances in the brain.

I think it's normal to think about suicide, but far fewer actually attempt to to kill themselves. Something holds them back. Hope perhaps, or fear of pain, or fear of how death will impact loved ones.

We all value different things of course, and I personally think it's important to place our value on those things which are more intangible and longer-lasting. Things that take more to lose. We have to recognize our own faults and make a real effort to improve as human beings, while realizing that we'll never be perfect.

I've thought of suicide on and off throughout my life, moreso recently. I just lost my 48-year old mother to cancer and my father has abused his access to her life insurance policy, spending it on trivial and unimportant things and attempting to buy the love of manipulative women with it. In the end though, you have to free yourself from any guilt or blame--especially for things that aren't your fault.

Thinking about the reason(s) for your sadness can do a lot to clarify the situation, but you must be willing to deal with what you find. You can't lie to yourself. Once you can recognize the cause of your distress, you can start addressing the problem.

If suicidal thoughts are occurring without any trigger, then perhaps you are experiencing an odd chemical imbalance in your brain. Lack of certain nutrients can lead to some very surprising depression. I'm a big advocate of curing ailments naturally, and would suggest that you look into some of the herbs and such that are available.

We can't always control what happens to us, but we can control how we react to it, or what we take into our bodies to perhaps address the issue in this case.

dakami · 3 months

One of the tests for antidepressants involves having a rat hold himself on a cord, seeing how long he can last before he falls into the water. The longer he holds on for dear life, the more he's showing a will to live vs. assumption of hopelessness.

Scientists tend to get really data averse when it comes to reasonable models of consciousness for animals, because, well, we do pretty awful things to them. It's probably the largest blind spot in all of science, to be honest.

[deleted] · 3 months

A lot of studies show a link between clinical depression in humans and off-kilter hormone levels, specifically with dopamine, norepinephrine, seratonin, and cortisol. Not that hormones are the only cause of depression/ suicidal behavior, but they do play a role.

http://www.allaboutdepression.com/cau_02.html

Environmental factors are big too. Stress and extremely negative situations obviously contribute.

benjash · 3 months

I think there are lots of different reasons for suicidal thoughts. I was raised as a Jehovahs Witness and found that over the years I got more and more depressed.

I was very secretive about my feelings i was having. So it took a long time to realise that i was very depressed, self harming and having constant suicidal thoughts.

These things ranged from thinking about harming myself, actually burning + cutting myself, considering driving into oncoming traffic, planning in my head suicids & giving myself a deadline for suicide.

I was in a very hopeless situation where my reality did not match the reality what my community was dictating. Years of psychological trauma, brainwashing and bullying had come to a head. It was like life became had no hope. I had grinding impulse to get out / simply not exist.

It was only when my work colleaque noticed cuts, questioned me and sent me to the doctor.

The doctors had me do this test: http://www.nhs.uk/Tools/Documents/Depression%20self%20assessment.htm

Eventually i was on anti-depressants, counselling and had a number to ring if i thought I was going to do anything bad. I could of taken time of work but chose to stay in work.

About 5 years later I now have nothing to be remotely sad about. The treatment worked mainly becuase I removed what was causing the problems. I've not been a jw for 4 years now and never felt better.

I think once you give up on living its very hard to think clearly.

Ive seen animals on TV that have been abused or kept captive, sometimes they give up on living and stop eating or bang there heads against walls. So i think i animals can kill themselves or at least give up on living.

Humans are easily "mentally" held captive and sometimes they cannot free themselves. Which creates a reality where they want to die. Which is ashame.

Existentialism has cool thought on this, which helped me a lot. Where existing creates a sort of dread or angst. I had lots of feelings like that even when i was happy. I was scared of being happy knowing it would be bad again.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

Transubstantive · 3 months

Animals in captivity have been known to kill their young and then themselves if the conditions are horrible enough. Bears in Indonesia held in captivity and harvested for their bile are a stark example of this.

darenas · 3 months

Look up Ostrich....some animals are just prone to suicide. Out of stupidity or just I don't know. People get suicidal because they think death is easier than their current situation. I for one, think that what happens after death is unknown, and would rather live a crappy life still existing than the possibility of something strange after death. Imagine, what if people after death are forced to listen to a Bieber song on repeat for an eternity...life is better :D Son of a...after I typed this out I saw it was in science...awaits deletion

chiefboo · 3 months

I'd like to know why people don't get suicidal thoughts more often. If you're completely honest with yourself and are a logical person then you cannot come up with a logical, non-subjective reason that life is worth living.

Most people live because they experience enough good that its worth suffering the bad, but in the end what does it really matter? Our lives are so insignificant in the grand scheme of things. We are but a blip in the universe's history and yet we push that fact into the back of our minds and focus on our technological advancements and say, "it matters. It has to."

In the end everyone's belief that their lives matter are going to be as ridiculous and illogical as everyone's belief in God.

somethingmeaningful · 3 months

Lemmings!

__circle · 3 months

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ronswansonfangirl · 3 months

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cmays90 · 3 months

Suicide is generally a state of hopelessness. Usually it's brought on by sudden change in one's life (losing a job, sudden uncontrolled move), mental illness (depression), certain drugs (marijuana, alcohol), loss of someone you love (suicide or breakup), and possibly some genetic factors.

It is actually very common to have suicidal thoughts. Through my job (I am a resident advisor in a dorm), we get trained on spotting and talking to possibly suicidal students. In my year and change of work, I have talked to 3 people about suicide. I want to say that during training, we were told that up to 3/4 of all people will consider suicide and come up with a plan. Whether or not that person intends to act on that plan is a whole different matter though. And the plan is what should draw attention. By the time a plan has formed, the situation is serious. However, if I am generally concerned enough about a resident to believe that they even may be thinking about suicide, I refer them to a psychologist anyways (it is a bit above my pay grade to help a resident through psychological issues).

Anyways here are some good links about suicide: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/suicide/DS01062/DSECTION=causes http://www.emedicinehealth.com/suicidal_thoughts/page2_em.htm

nalilito · 3 months

I am no expert in suicide but when I was a kid, about 15 years ago, I saw a monkey, on TV, who committed suicide all by himself, inside a cage.

What's weird is that the/these monkey/monkies have white foam in their mouth and likely dies from suffocation, without any kind of assistance - no idea how they do that. The monkeys only do this if they sense that they will be killed for food. They can also usually see their fellow monkeys being skinned.

I'm from the Philippines and I saw it from the discontinued show "Magandang Gabi Bayan" (roughly translates to "Good Evening Country/Nation" ) which has many environmental episodes just like BBC.

They have very interesting subjects like king cobra catchers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au-nO2p4EaQ. Half of the show is very unscientific (like subjects about ghosts, conspiracy theories, ghosts, exorcism, etc) unlike BBC narrators who mentions lots of facts rather than just narrate. But I saw what I saw.

Someone mentioned about tarsiers but I have zero knowledge about them.

3 months

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Anzai · 3 months

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ComaBerenices · 3 months

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