use the following search parameters to narrow your results:
e.g.(and 'dog' reddit:'aww' site:'imgur.com')
(and 'dog' reddit:'aww' site:'imgur.com')
see the search faq for details.
advanced search: by author, community...
For Maritime Archeologists: Name the top five shipwrecks that no one has heard about. (self.askscience)
submitted 1 year ago by Dooflegna
Also, bonus points for talking about what was historically cooked aboard these shipwrecks.
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 44 points45 points46 points 1 year ago
Top five that no one has heard about? Tall order!
But here are a few you might not have heard about, in no particular order. These aren't the five most significant or anything, but they're cool, and important for various reasons.
Sutton Hoo was not a wreck, but an Anglo-Saxon burial from the 7th century. There're really beautiful artifacts from the site, including a helmet that's become iconic.
Blackfriar I is a 2nd century ship found in London. It's neat because it may show frame-first construction of a native style, rather than the mortise-and-tenon construction typical of the Romans who ran the place. Mortise and tenon means that the planks were held together along the edge with pegs and slots, rather than by internal frames. In any case, it's definitely different than what was going on in the Mediterranean.
Serce Limani, an 11th century ship which sank in Turkey, is also important. It doesn't have any mortise and tenon joints at all, and is one of the early examples of naval architecture. It was built in some sort of units, and the frames were spaced in multiples of that. The keel and posts were built first, and then a pair of midship frames. The shipbuilder would have added a couple more frames, and then put planking on the bottom. Once the bottom of the hull was described, the shape of the rest of the ship could be determined, and it was finished. The ship was carrying glass, which was likely some sort of glass-recycling effort. It would have been steered with a pair of rudders hung from the quarters.
La Belle was a small French ship which sank in 1686 in Texas. This was an early attempt by the French to colonize the Mississippi river, but a poor map misled them and they wound up in Texas. Combinations of poor decisions, ineffective leadership, bad luck, and hostile natives led to their colony getting into some trouble. Then their last remaining ship, La Belle, sank, and that was the end. Their leader, La Salle, tried to convince people to walk to the French settlement at Quebec with him, but they wound up killing him. A couple guys did walk to Quebec, and survived. In 1995, the ship was discovered, mostly intact on the bay floor. It was raised whole, and while the final publication isn't out just yet, there are a multitude of artifacts aboard, including most of what you'd need to start a colony. That ship was built with doubled internal frames, which is a construction method usually connected with the 18th century. It was also a "ship kit" that had all of its frames numbered, so it could be assembled in the new world. Because of space issues, the French wound up building it in France and sailing it across to the new world itself. Lots of artifacts, new shipbuilding techniques, and the first European permanent settlement in Texas make this one a big deal.
The fifth is a bit of a challenge. I want to go with Vasa or Kyrenia, but those are pretty well known. Instead, I think I'll break with the spirit of the question a little and go with a type of wreck - the ships buried under cities. One of those, the Ronson ship, was found in Manhattan, what's now several blocks from the water. It was most probably a mid-18th century ship, and only the bow was recovered. Another example of this sort of thing is Niantic, a wreck found just next to the Transamerica Pyramid building in San Francisco. It was a whaling ship that brought gold rush folks to California. Like so many others, its crew abandoned it for prospecting when it got there, so it was turned into a floating warehouse. A doorway was cut in the side, and it was built on, and built on, turning into more of a building all the time. Finally, fire and landfill took their toll, and Niantic was buried... only to be rediscovered in the late 70s. I chose this last pair of examples to illustrate that shipwrecks sometimes lie under our feet as well as under the waves - steamboats frequently wound up miles from the rivers they sailed on, due to shifting rivers.
This was a long post, but I'm glad someone finally asked something in my wheelhouse!
[–]Dooflegna[S] 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
You're one of my favorite /r/askscience panelists, and I found myself amazed that no one really asked you questions on your fascinating subject. Also, this. :)
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
I appreciate it!
[–]rpebbleColloid Science|Electrochemistry 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
I was trying to figure out what questions I could ask about shipwrecks, looks like someone beat me to the punch :)
[–]siliconlifeGeology|Igneous Petrology 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
I'm pretty sure this question was made for you. :D
[–]DocTacoSedimentology|Stratigraphy|Geochronology|Geochemistry 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
Related question: Which shipwrecks are the most coveted by archaeologists but have not yet been found?
We'd like to find anything that fills in the gaps. Most of us don't go looking for famous wrecks - those get a lot of press but frequently don't tell us any more than a non-famous one.
I'd like to find an English-built 17th century ship. More Egyptian ships would be nice. Some of the more obscure experimental warship designs from the 19th century aren't well-documented, so that'd be nice.
Our main problem is finding money. There's not a lot of it out there for us. It doesn't take much to support an archaeologist doing a survey project; it's when excavation (or even worse, full ship recovery) happens that things get super pricey.
[–]rocketsocks 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfriars_Ships#Blackfriars_I
http://www.diveturkey.com/inaturkey/serce.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Belle_\(ship\)
http://ina.tamu.edu/waterstreet/waterstreet.htm
[–]whatatwit 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
If it wouldn't compromise your anonymity here have you ever published a book or is your work all in journals?
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I'd rather not talk about what I've published, sorry!
Completely understandable - I imagine Maritime Archeology is not so flush with scientists as some other disciplines.
Also, if anyone has any other questions, fire away.
[–]AeronauticoAerospace Engineering|Systems Engineering 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Are you generally allowed to dive to any wrecks you know about, or are there some sort of laws governing that? (US)
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
Mostly you're allowed to dive on any wreck. I can't promise you there aren't some jurisdictions with some other rules. For example, I imagine the Park Service and Navy would have something to say about going diving on Arizona. There are some exceptions - USS Monitor, for instance. It is perfectly ok to go diving there, and they encourage it, but you need to let them know first so they can send an observer along.
so they can send an observer along.
To observe what, exactly?
They want to make sure you're not ripping things off the wreck or hunting for souvenirs.
[–]econleech 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
What's the law regarding found treasure on shipwrecks? Is it finders keepers?
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago
It varies based on jurisdiction. What follows is not legal advice.
It depends on where the shipwreck is and who owns it. Navies don't give up title to their ships, for instance. That means the ship and everything on it belongs to them, forever.
Other than that, it depends heavily on the jurisdiction.
But let's talk non-legally for a minute. When you remove objects from the wreck, you're stealing them from all of us. I firmly believe that cultural heritage belongs to you as much as me, her as much as him. And breaking up the collection, moving it to places it can't be accessed and likely won't be conserved... that's not right. Further, you're limiting the ability of researchers to learn anything from what you've taken from a wreck site. Artifacts can be incredibly helpful in figuring out what went on with a wreck, and it's stealing part of the data set if you take them.
This isn't to say that private individuals or companies can't do great archaeology. It's just that frequently treasure hunters don't. It's just not their goal.
Last, the economics of treasure hunting are not great. The vast majority of ships weren't carrying any precious metals. Even if they were, it costs a fortune to find them and get to them. There have been very few financially successful treasure-hunting ventures.
In short, don't treasure hunt. :)
[–]radbrad 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
it depends on if it's in international waters, or american waters. you'd have to check and see what the salvage laws are by consulting with a Maritime Attorney, who specializes in Admiralty Law. some wrecks, nobody may have salvage rights, other wrecks, someone ay have claimed salvage rights. if nobody has claimed salvage rights, then by all means, YOU should file for salvage rights, to protect your interests, so nobody else can pick anything off the wrecks.
[–]Tripeasaurus 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
I thought of one!
How do you actually go about finding wrecks? Especially in the deep ocean where I guess you don't just trip over them accidentally.
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
Wrecks are everywhere. It's helpful (for me, at least) to remember that most wrecks are wrecks because they hit something, and most often that something is land. So many are in very shallow water. Those can sometimes be seen on aerial photos, sometimes by local knowledge, sometimes by towboarding (a snorkeler is towed on a board by a boat, looking down through a mask), and sometimes they're just sticking up out of the water.
For wrecks that aren't as easy as that to find, you need remote sensing. Most usually that's acoustic sensing (multibeam and/or sidescan) and magnetic sensing. Sensor fish are towed behind or attached to a survey boat, and that data is post-processed and georectified. Then an archaeologist looks at that data, finds anomalies, and makes a determination on whether they're likely to be cultural in origin (as opposed to an old tree or something). Then, assuming there's time and money for it, the anomalies are ground-truthed by divers or ROVs.
[–]whatatwit 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago*
At least to a layperson there are similarities between the roof structures of ancient cathedrals and churches (at least in the UK) and those of wooden ships. Do professionals ever use these as proxies when studying maritime architecture and shipbuilding techniques?
EDIT too many at leasts.
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago*
Not really as proxies, because, well, they're not ships. But yes, they're very similar. Many times they're built by the same craftsmen, even!
Actually, it might be really interesting to delve into the actual similarities a little more.
[–]b0jangl3s 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
What were the necessary technologies for the first sea crossing vessels (not counting accidental and highly dangerous accidents)?
What era were the first reliable sea crossing vessels from (I tried to google it, and failed)?
If someone with a knowledge of geography and navigation was somehow around in the bronze age, what would be the hardest thing holding them back from being able to get across the ocean?
EDIT: Feel free to ignore these if it's not quick/interesting to answer, I'm mostly asking because I had a debate about something like these questions, and neither of us really understood enough of the issues to know if it was more a problem of navigation (my opinion, based on a program I watched about how difficult it is to navigate without precise time), or if there were construction issues.
The hardest thing about sailing long distances is figuring out where you are when you can't see land. You can figure out your latitude easily - that's doable by taking a star-sight. Longitude is harder. For that you need an accurate timepiece. So if you went back in time with knowledge, geography, and a watch, you'd be just fine.
Some ship designs are good for the Atlantic, some aren't. As for when the first crossing was made, it was probably the Vikings that settled at L'Anse aux Meadows. We have no evidence for oceanic crossings before that. Viking ships were especially well-constructed for that sort of thing; they're very strong.
[–]aerobit 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I'm sure you're aware that you can tell time by watching Jupiter's moons. At least you can set your watch by them every few hours, assuming it's clear.
Was this ever done? Or did accurate timepieces and reasonably clear telescopes pretty much become available at the same time?
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
By the time it was known you could watch the moons of Jupiter for time, timepieces were well on their way.
Thanks! (Sorry for the late reply)
[–]diggpthoo 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Serious question : How is Archaeology related to Coking? I mean what's so important about cooking over other things?
Archaeology is the study of people in the past, through the things they left behind. Cooking's not more important than everything else, but foodways are an important part of life.
Think of things like first dates: they're so frequently over meals. Families eat together. Food is a big part of wakes at funerals.
We leave behind evidence of how we ate, and that evidence is part of what tells archaeologists how we lived.
[–]jkb83Molecular/Cellular Neuroscience|Synaptic Plasticity 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Obviously not my area of expertise, but I have always wanted to visit this shipwreck in Greece, and I don't know that much about it:
Zakynthos
[–]Crausaum 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Panagiotis
[–]jkb83Molecular/Cellular Neuroscience|Synaptic Plasticity 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
Neato, thanks.
[–][deleted] 1 year ago
[deleted]
1.) Not a personal anecdote.
2.) A request for further information from those knowledgeable about this particular example is more certainly on-topic.
3.) She.
4.) Relax.
Your comment history is pretty funny - is that all you do? Go around askscience telling people not to comment on areas outside their expertise?
What's your expertise? Why are you commenting?
If you were more useful you might be less annoying.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 44 points45 points46 points ago
[–]Dooflegna[S] 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]rpebbleColloid Science|Electrochemistry 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]siliconlifeGeology|Igneous Petrology 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]DocTacoSedimentology|Stratigraphy|Geochronology|Geochemistry 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]rocketsocks 2 points3 points4 points ago*
[–]whatatwit 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]whatatwit 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]AeronauticoAerospace Engineering|Systems Engineering 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]AeronauticoAerospace Engineering|Systems Engineering 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]econleech 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–]radbrad 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Tripeasaurus 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]whatatwit 1 point2 points3 points ago*
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 2 points3 points4 points ago*
[–]b0jangl3s 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]aerobit 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]b0jangl3s 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]diggpthoo 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]foretopsailMaritime Archaeology 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]jkb83Molecular/Cellular Neuroscience|Synaptic Plasticity 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]Crausaum 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]jkb83Molecular/Cellular Neuroscience|Synaptic Plasticity 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–]jkb83Molecular/Cellular Neuroscience|Synaptic Plasticity 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–]jkb83Molecular/Cellular Neuroscience|Synaptic Plasticity 1 point2 points3 points ago