this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2010
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mmmcupcakes 34 points35 points 1 month ago[-]

From my experience as being the only girl in a programming class, it sucks. I could never get a partner because they all thought I'd suck at programming or they'd grill me on my programming experience. One of the partners I had wanted to do the whole thing and said I could just "sit pretty" :/

demented_pants [S] 19 points20 points 1 month ago[-]

I'm so sorry. Stuff like this is exactly why I'm convinced that there is a necessity for things like the conference I just got back from celebrating women in computing - not that men weren't welcome, and there were even a few there, but seriously, how often do you get to meet like-minded women who have similar interests?

I made a half-dozen new friends, easy, this weekend. It was awesome.

mmmcupcakes 3 points4 points 1 month ago[-]

Where was the conference?

My boss told me that he wanted to try to do some programs for high school girls to get them into programming early on. I think that would be very interesting.

linuxlass 3 points4 points 1 month ago[-]

IBM has a program called IGNITE (it's an acronym for something) that is a summer week-long day camp for middle school (and I think high school) kids to learn more about engineering-type stuff. Each day has a theme, and the kinds of activities really varies. I don't know if they do this at all IBM sites or not, but it's a good program and worth emulating.

demented_pants [S] 1 point2 points 1 month ago* [-]

This one was in Indiana, but there are a number of states that have their own "WIC" conferences (Women in Computing). You might check out the Anita Borg Institute site for more resources.

ohmyashleyy 17 points18 points 1 month ago[-]

That really sucks, I got past that my first semester when everyone was coming to me for help by the end of the semester. And then after that I had my friends in the major and had no problem finding partners. I'm sorry it was so crappy for you :(

mmmcupcakes 6 points7 points 1 month ago[-]

It's okay, at the very end of the class, all of the international students realized that I was the one who got out of class the fastest, and they would fight over who got to be my partner. It was very silly.

pranksterturtle 10 points11 points 1 month ago[-]

And then you strangled him with your bare hands, right?

mmmcupcakes 8 points9 points 1 month ago[-]

I wish I did! He didn't even know how to do the basic stuff! I ended up finishing the program in five minutes and he asked me out on a date to tutor him. Needless to say, I turned him down because I was too busy sitting pretty.

Misio 6 points7 points 1 month ago[-]

I was best friends with the girl in my programming class. She was better than me, and helped me. I think I can safely say "heh"

azuriel 6 points7 points 1 month ago[-]

I wish I could say the opposite was true, but most of the girls in my computer science classes are pretty incompetent. There are two that are pretty good, but that's ~10% of those I know personally. There are plenty of incompetent guys out there too, but it's more like 50%.

Trust me when I say I want more girls in computer science (and my department pushes it quite heavily, since that's one of the big crusades of our female department chair), and I want them to succeed. The profession is badly in need of some feminizing, so we can erase some of those old stereotypes.

skooma714 1 point2 points 29 days ago[-]

More women in IT? Yes please.

JulianMorrison 8 points9 points 1 month ago[-]

As a programmer, I apologise on behalf of my profession.

zobier 4 points5 points 1 month ago[-]

Seconded.

thepowerofone 1 point2 points 28 days ago[-]

thirded

wonkifier 4 points5 points 1 month ago[-]

One of the partners I had wanted to do the whole thing and said I could just "sit pretty"

First off, WTF?!

Secondly, I wonder if there's something regional to this at all, or if my college was just different (or if I was just oblivious), but while we had very women in our programming classes, they didn't seem to have problems finding a team to work on.

EvilGamerKitty 4 points5 points 1 month ago[-]

I've had the opposite experience. I was in engineering, and many of my peers just sucked at programming. I always got stuck doing all the work, because I was the only one that understood it.

I would have completely welcomed any help. Some of that stuff was incredibly difficult, even for the groups with more than one programmer. I wish you were in my classes. :(

rebeccas 1 point2 points 1 month ago* [-]

THIS.

minor_discrepancy 10 points11 points 1 month ago[-]

I am in the computer graphics program at my school. I am usually one of two or three females in the class. I used to have people blow me off because they didn't think I'd understand the technical side of the programs enough to progress. Now I'm friends with most of the guys in the class. It took several projects worth to prove that I was capable before I really started to get much respect.

demented_pants [S] 6 points7 points 1 month ago[-]

It's funny how subconsciously a lot of people will just assume that men in the field know their stuff and yet women have to prove it. I think the WORST part is that women are worse at this than men, but I think the "Generalization X applies to me, so it must apply to my whole gender" train of thinking tends to be more present in women than men.

endo -3 points-2 points 1 month ago[-]

I find this laughable, as nearly every good graphic designer in our company is a woman, and think that you're barking up the wrong tree on that one. Perhaps because it's regarded as the career of metrosexuals and pretty women.

minor_discrepancy 7 points8 points 1 month ago[-]

Yeah it continues to be a weird experience. I think the main difference is that it's not graphic design, it's 3D modeling and like CG for movies and stuff. I guess once it gets down to it, girls are expected to be able to make things pretty with computers but not make awesome monsters in movies and video games. :(

surely_youre_joking 9 points10 points 1 month ago[-]

Yea, I'm TAing for a sophmore level CS course. There's one girl out of both recitations... =/

My Probability and Stochastic Processes course has two girls, including me. Even with all the scholarships they throw at women (I got 8 grand a year for being a women in engineering in undergrad), the school I attended still had a 4:1 male to female ratio. Only when the school started offering business, art, and humanities degrees did the ratio improve a bit.

I can't really say that I've ever been discouraged though, to enter the field. All my professors have been really supportive, as well as a few that are quite interested in helping fund my research. ;D

But I guess growing up it was never really pushed, and being the girl that was good at math or with computers made me sort of an oddball in highschool.

gangsta_bitch_barbie 10 points11 points 1 month ago[-]

Hmm... I've been in the IT field for more than 5 years, I've never had any problems with my male co-workers, but I think that's because they pick up on my competitive nature quickly and see that I'll take on any challenge. I've also never been afraid of negotiating a good salary and in my last job and current job, I managed to get the high-end of the salary range for my title. I also always managed to get more vacation time than any of my co-workers, lol.

I was never "socialized" to not ask for a raise - where the hell does that come from?? Have any of you been taught that? By who?

labbrat 15 points16 points 1 month ago[-]

I'm in the sciences, not IT, but we have a lot of the same problems, and I've read a lot of the same analyses of why women don't get ahead, etc. As far as the raise thing goes, it's apparently not that women are socialized specifically not to ask, but that they think they won't have to. Women are more likely to do their work and assume that the good job they're doing will be noticed, etc., without them asking or calling attention to it. So they wait for a raise but don't get it (or don't get it as soon as they could have if they'd asked.)

mmmcupcakes 4 points5 points 1 month ago[-]

:(

You mean that I won't be noticed for doing a good job? I think I'm doomed.

demented_pants [S] 5 points6 points 1 month ago[-]

Found you some statistics to support the assertion.

gangsta_bitch_barbie 2 points3 points 1 month ago[-]

Thanks for the extra info... I'm really curious to know what age group these stats really cover. None of the females (that I know) in my age group (25-35) seem to have these issues, however, I have seen this behavior in my mother's age group.

demented_pants [S] 4 points5 points 1 month ago[-]

I think there's a lot to be said there. I personally am a graduate of a women's college, and I can say that it never occurred to me that I might need to negotiate my starting salary up after they make the initial offer until I was sitting in a business class my freshman year with a rather knowledgeable professor who'd done a lot in the business world before becoming a teacher.

I was kind of horrified at the idea at first. But what if they tell me no, and go with another candidate? It seemed to be the opinion of a lot of us. He explained that if they're offering, then they're interested, and the worst they're likely to do is tell you they don't really have it in the budget. And then he dropped this A-bomb of wisdom on me:

"If they don't want you because you're proactive enough to negotiate, then you probably don't want to work for them." That was a revelation.

ndnda 6 points7 points 1 month ago[-]

I can't say that I've been "taught" that - by which I mean that I don't remember anyone ever telling me that - but I have a very hard time asking for raises. Whether it's something I picked up or it's just my personality, I don't know.

ohmyashleyy 5 points6 points 1 month ago[-]

I was among that 14%!

demented_pants [S] 5 points6 points 1 month ago[-]

Awesome. I'm in Information Science, so I'm not as hardcore as say, a software engineer or a straight CS degree, but I look forward to the day I'll receive my Master's degree.

ohmyashleyy 2 points3 points 1 month ago[-]

I'm planning to go back to grad school in a few years, but I think I might do Information Systems instead of Computer Science. I'm a Web App Developer, so I don't really like the pure science of CS, but I like that Information Systems is kind of a mix of management and CS.

demented_pants [S] 0 points1 point 1 month ago[-]

I was an Info Systems minor in my undergrad, and that's fairly accurate, though from what I'm seeing here in my grad work it's very similar to Info Science except that I'm doing more stuff like information architecture and organizational informatics and less business law and accounting.

Xert 11 points12 points 1 month ago[-]

Some fascinating studies here, thanks. If anyone has links to articles (academic or otherwise) that specifically discuss the studies mentioned here, please do post them.

Did you know that girls tend to internalize the amount of math anxiety their female teachers display? It didn't affect the boys at all

Just to clarify, anxiety displayed by female teachers did not affect the boys at all, or anxiety displayed by male teachers in a parallel experiment did not affect the boys at all?

An experiment was done where they assembled teams and then had actors, both male and female, lead the teams in EXACTLY the same way. Men who behaved the way prescribed by the experiment were described as having high ability, skills, and intelligence. Women who behaved in the way prescribed by the experiment were described by their "subordinates" as being more emotional, bossy, and domineering.

Were the teams themselves made up of both men and women? If so, did their perceptions differ? If so, how so?

Women are socialized not to ask for raises

How so?

Why numbers count: In the IT workforce, only 25% of applicants are women to begin with. Once you get through screening and hiring, that number diminishes significantly. And when you consider that 2 out of 3 women will leave the IT workforce only a few years out of college, that's kind of a depressing trend.

I would say that we need more information before concluding that it's depressing. Why are they leaving, and what other choices did the other 25% select instead? And if female enrollment in CS programs is 14%, then the fact that 25% of IT applicants are women seems rather high.

Also, is the number of women applicants vs. hires diminished at a rate greater than that of male applicants vs. hires? The only female CS student I know seems to have the impression that her job opportunities are in no way whatsoever hampered by being female, indeed quite the opposite.

demented_pants [S] 12 points13 points 1 month ago[-]

Just to clarify...

Male students in general did not display any correlation at all with their teachers' level of math anxiety regardless of gender.

How so?

I don't know about you, but almost every woman I know tends to feel like she shouldn't bother people, or that she shouldn't have to ask for a raise - if she does a good job, her boss will notice and reward her accordingly. There's this perception of women that speak up as being "bitchy" or "whiny" rather than "outgoing" and "proactive" and I think that women have really internalized that.

female enrollment ... IT applicants

Note that it's female enrollment in CS classes, rather than in all classes relating to IT. We're seeing it balanced about even in "softer" IT-related subjects like web design and Human-Computer Interaction Design.

the number of women applicants vs. hires...

I can't say for sure, as that wasn't addressed in the talk. As for the only female CS student you know: I hope she's right, but given what I've seen and experienced and heard others talk about (such as the lecturer's experience of having a CS math class taught directly TO her because she was the only female in the class, despite having scored the highest in the room on the assignment that was being discussed) suggests to me that this just isn't the case, however much I''d like for it to be true.

Xert 4 points5 points 1 month ago[-]

Hm. FYI whoever downmodded you wasn't me.

I don't know about you, but almost every woman I know tends to feel like she shouldn't bother people, or that she shouldn't have to ask for a raise - if she does a good job, her boss will notice and reward her accordingly. There's this perception of women that speak up as being "bitchy" or "whiny" rather than "outgoing" and "proactive" and I think that women have really internalized that.

Any numbers? I don't mean to imply that you're wrong, only that I'm more comfortable with evidence than experience. (Much like you and my CS friend's perceptions of job potential. Yes, it's fair.)

Note that it's female enrollment in CS classes, rather than in all classes relating to IT. We're seeing it balanced about even in "softer" IT-related subjects like web design and Human-Computer Interaction Design.

Yes, I was going to elaborate on that before deciding to get some work done instead, heh. I didn't realize that web design counted as IT. I guess then the important question is a comparison between female and male enrollments, graduation, applications, and job offers among the various IT-related degrees.

I can't say for sure, as that wasn't addressed in the talk. As for the only female CS student you know: I hope she's right, but given what I've seen and experienced and heard others talk about (such as the lecturer's experience of having a CS math class taught directly TO her because she was the only female in the class, despite having scored the highest in the room on the assignment that was being discussed) suggests to me that this just isn't the case, however much I''d like for it to be true.

Fair enough, but what does being "taught to" (yes, that's ridiculous) say about one's job prospects? The link seems tenuous to me.

demented_pants [S] 10 points11 points 1 month ago[-]

Ooh. Here's a link regarding why Women Don't Ask.

Xert 0 points1 point 28 days ago[-]

Thank you!

demented_pants [S] 6 points7 points 1 month ago[-]

I really don't have any numbers, but I have seen this generalization made a number of times. If I can find anything to support it I'll let you know!

Yes, I was going to elaborate

Yeah, that was one thing that I would have liked to have seen as well. I think the "CS degrees" statistic was made because the person giving the talk is faculty in the CS department at her institution; the "25% of applicants" was meant to be a separate statistic that came afterwards. Unfortunately it does sort of look like it's supposed to go together, so that was an ambiguity on my part.

being "taught to"

If even in an academic setting - note that colleges are traditionally among the more liberal places to be in the US - there is a perception that women need to be babied along and given extra attention (to the point where it was actually an embarrassment for her), then what must it be like in the IT workforce? Despite the fact that she got the highest score in the group on the assignment (she had an 80-something while others were scoring in the 50s or so), she was asked to verify her score for the TA not once, but a few times, until she finally had to show him the score for him to believe her.

I know that my personal experience working in IT has been that I'm treated just the same as one of the guys, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that I'm very crass and outspoken and you almost never see me dressed up, and I put on makeup for work pretty much never, because I'd rather sleep that few extra minutes in the morning.

Glameow 1 point2 points 29 days ago[-]

Was she one of the only ones to get a score of 80 something? If everyone else was getting 50 something and she got 80, then it may have had more to do with her having an unusually high score for anyone, than a bias due to her being female.

I'm just trying to give an alternative perspective - I know full well that things like that DO happen.

I was lucky enough to complete my CS degree in a department where this didn't happen at all. Perhaps like you it's because I was always wearing jeans, sweater and no make up, but I never experienced any overt sexism and neither has a friend in the same department. I never got close to the one or two "girly" girls there so I've no idea if their perception was different.

lurkergirl 4 points5 points 1 month ago[-]

I don't know about you, but almost every woman I know tends to feel like she shouldn't bother people, or that she shouldn't have to ask for a raise - if she does a good job, her boss will notice and reward her accordingly. There's this perception of women that speak up as being "bitchy" or "whiny" rather than "outgoing" and "proactive" and I think that women have really internalized that.

Any numbers? I don't mean to imply that you're wrong, only that I'm more comfortable with evidence than experience. (Much like you and my CS friend's perceptions of job potential. Yes, it's fair.)

This is anecdotal, but demented_pants description fits my experience exactly. I have had too many parents and teachers bitch at me because I asked for something to be willing to stick my neck out again. And I'm not talking huge favors here- I'm talking can I get a ride to see a friend 5 minutes away or please have X,Y, and Z pieces of information ready for me when I fix your computer.

Glameow 1 point2 points 29 days ago[-]

Maybe the lecturer appreciated that she was a hardworking and attentive student, and that was why he seemed to give so much attention?

I think there's often more than one perspective to these things, obviously I am in no position to judge without having been there.

DPyro 6 points7 points 1 month ago[-]

The (few) women in my CS program have internships and scholarships thrown upon them.

Xert 0 points1 point 28 days ago[-]

That was the impression I had from her, and I think from other male friends of my own in CS, but in discussion with male friends the subject has never come up more than anecdotally.

I heard of a single girl who was completely inept and relied on everyone else to complete her assignments and everyone knew it. I heard of another girl who was not only brilliant but gorgeous with a personality to boot and she's currently rising ridiculously rapidly through the ranks at IBM (the consensus was that while being female helped accelerate things, she was on her way to the top regardless). And I've heard of competent female programmers in class situations, but never got an impression of their prospects in general. I'll have to follow up on that.

Lykii 1 point2 points 29 days ago[-]

I'm a research assistant for an Industrial Organizational Psychologist who researches mainly for gender discrimination in different areas including females in management, compensation and performance reviews. I can dig up some of the studies she's done, but one of the big ones we're working on is a form of "Think Manager, Think Male." Just google that and you might find some information. I'll try to link some interesting studies your way on this topic.

Xert 0 points1 point 28 days ago[-]

Thank you! I know I -- and I'm sure many others here -- would greatly appreciate it if you submitted any interesting studies you came across in your life of work.

demented_pants [S] 1 point2 points 1 month ago[-]

Since you asked about the 25% thing, I will have to cop to having totally misremembered what that slide was all about.

What is really relevant there is that studies have found that when women make up 25% or less of the applicant pool, they tend to get judged much more harshly by those evaluating their applications/resumes. This is actually applicable across fields, not strictly in the IT world.

Xert 0 points1 point 28 days ago[-]

Thanks.

I wonder if that <25% statistic would apply to other minorities as well...

your-boss 8 points9 points 1 month ago* [-]

I am a man and have worked as a programmer in enterprise and small businesses with women. I have had many positive experiences, but these are my gripes.

I am making a generalization of my personal experiences. The women programmers I have met (over 10 of them I think):

  1. Do not/Did not program other projects in their spare time

  2. The younger ones took criticism of their code and of work practices WAAAAAAAAAAAY too personally. (the enterprise I worked at had a few 40+ women programmers who were awesome).

  3. Women programmers were in it for the job. The male programmers in which I built relationships and formed businesses with were in it for the tech. They read books about new tech, they wrote demos in their spare time and they followed that stuff very closely. I have never met a woman that did the same.

I think men and women have different interests because of a variety of factors. There is always crossover, but until I see more women on the edge of technology, I don't think I will see many on the working plane of it.

modernage 11 points12 points 1 month ago[-]

I’m not in IT, but I work for an engineering design company and we have a mix of disciplines; I am personally an EE but I work closely enough with software engineers to notice patterns, too. In my observations, >95% of people are in it for the job. The vast majority works 50 hours/week or less and I only know of a couple that do any extensive projects at home. When you have 85% males and 15% females (approximately our situation now), it is just statistically more likely that the top 1% of performers are male. And I sure hope they are getting paid more than the rest because spending every single weekend at the office deserves some recognition. What does slightly bother me is that when female engineers are compared to males, they are compared to that 1%, when the vast majority of male engineers are also nowhere near that performance level, either.

your-boss 1 point2 points 29 days ago[-]

Everyone is always compared to the best person for the job.

modernage 0 points1 point 29 days ago[-]

Well, no shit. Except the comparison should be "Bob vs. Jane" or "Bob vs. everyone else" not "males vs. females" when that one male you're comparing women to is not at all representative of the rest of the males.

Paul-ish 3 points4 points 29 days ago[-]

I don't remember where it was said (in /r/programming I think), but some programmers believe that balance is important. Managers with experience coding have said that they prefer people who don't go home and do tons of tech stuff. Their argument was that people who get too interested in tech tend not look for simply a working solution, but the "best" solution (meets all the nitpicky standards), even when it doesn't make difference.

The managers said it was the difference between working smart and working hard. Tech zealots tend to work hard, people who are indifferent or ambivalent tend to work smart and create working solutions quickly. By their standards and your description, women are the best programmers.

your-boss 0 points1 point 29 days ago[-]

Pretty sound thinking.

I didn't much like being an enterprise programmer. The people were great. Being surrounded by other older programmers was refreshing.

I'm a multi-hat cio in a startup right now. Perhaps your thinking is better than I thought.

ndnda 3 points4 points 1 month ago[-]

1 and #3 aren't true for me, but #2 is. But I know that it's a problem, and I work very hard not to show it when I take things personally. I know I just need to listen to what they say and learn from it.

I'm currently only working part time and don't really have code reviews very often, but I suspect that once I'm out in the field working full time, I'll grow a thicker skin pretty quickly!

your-boss 2 points3 points 1 month ago[-]

Code reviews are difficult for everyone. Learning how to take criticism takes a lot of patience and a lot of strength. I learned it while taking music lessons my entire life. It was always wrong until it was right. Knowing what will make it right is the crux.

I take things too personally sometimes, but I wanted to air my grievances and see the comments based on those. I have no problem working with men or women, but if I were to decide on who I work with it definitely would be someone that shares my interest, has skills in the required area and can work together and apart.

linuxlass 2 points3 points 1 month ago[-]

Do not/Did not program other projects in their spare time

Does it count if I used to? My husband and kids suck up my spare time. Can I count the fact that I'm teaching my kid programming? Or teaching other kids programming? :) I gave my son an Ubuntu machine, and I do the small amounts of network admin that's needed in my house.

The younger ones took criticism of their code and of work practices WAAAAAAAAAAAY too personally.

I think that is something that takes time to learn. Girls are protected too much in school, and don't get the criticism that boys do as they are growing up. (At least that was true in my day - gosh I'm feeling old now!)

I grew up with studying and performing music, and doing other competitions. This made me used to the idea of being judged by other people. It also helped me see what level I had to perform at in order to feel competent.

I'm saddened that my 12yo son shows little interest in either music or academic competition. One day soon, I think I'll need to push him into something.

Women programmers were in it for the job

I think this perception is skewed by the relative small sample size. Most people are in it for the job, but 0.5% of a large number is still several people, while 0.5% of a small number is frequently zero.

your-boss 1 point2 points 29 days ago* [-]

That is awesome! What language are you teaching your son?

You should try to get your 12yo to be in music. It has changed my live so positively I can't say enough about it. It builds confidence and character. Can you take him to a few concerts of different kinds of music? Jazz, Classical, Folk. You could probably find concerts of local groups or high schools or colleges. I fondly remember going to the Symphony with my parents. I also remember sitting out on the grass on a bright summer day squinting towards the big band music coming out of the grandstand.

I am frequently amazed that kids (under 15) have very little basis of comparison. Children always seem so smart, but their lack of a breadth of knowledge really holds them back. Reading, play and concentration are all part of music and all valuable skills.

linuxlass 2 points3 points 29 days ago[-]

He's learning python (pygame). I have to really sit on my hands and not criticize his program design too much. He uses Dr. Python as an editor, and it has a feature where you can collapse program blocks so they don't clutter the screen, so it's easy for him to ignore the fact that he's got 50 lines in an if statement. I figure that knowing how/when to create a function is an advanced concept, so I let him have his monolith.

His current project is a small tile-based adventure game, the kind where you wander around and talk to people and get quests. He figured out how to use Gimp to create graphics (he antialiases by hand!). He hasn't gotten around to the combat system yet, and I suggested he look at my husband's D&D books to get an idea of how it's done. He scrounged music off the internet and uses Audacity to edit the files to create a reasonable loop. It's pretty cool - I only had to show him the programs, give him a brief orientation, and tell him how to find documentation, and he jumped right in.

We started with Scratch, but he quickly bumped up against its limitations, and told me when he was ready to move on to python. He was impressed at the idea that python was a real language, and his eyes sparkled when I mentioned that the recent Civ game uses python as a scripting language for modding. He's not there yet, and I have reservations about letting him play Civ, but I can tell that he's fallen in love with programming, like I did at that age.

As for music, he has some rudimentary ability to read the treble clef, and some understanding of rhythm. But when I was trying to teach him, I think he was frustrated that it didn't come as easily as everything else he's tried to do, and his younger sister has much more natural enthusiasm and ability that it made him decide not to try. I've told him that I am still determined that he learn the basics of some instrument, but I've given up hope that he will be in band or any other organized group. I know that I got a lot out of being in band, and preparing for solo contests, and playing chamber music in college; and even now, I play in an adult marching band and it's so much fun.

I would hate for him to not have that kind of opportunity. It's a social thing but not intensely social (great for us introverts with awkward social skills!) and it rewards skill, unlike many other social things. We do occasionally go see live music. Most recently I took him and his sister to the 6th grade fall concert, because he has some friends in band, and he enjoys it, but doesn't see himself as someone who can do that. His sister (in 4th grade) got so excited and announced that she definitely wanted to be in band when she got to 6th grade!

But, no, I haven't given up on him. I will teach him music! :)

Glameow 1 point2 points 29 days ago[-]

I don't think it's fair to judge someone negatively for being in something for a job rather than a vocation - it's not like there won't be men who are the same in that field, they're just less noticeable, under less scrutiny.

Socially it's harder to be a female geek than a male one. People look at me like I'm an alien because I have a website and code in my spare time, but for guys it's far more acceptable from what I can tell. Or have I got that all wrong?

The interest in tech & gadgets, in a broader sense - I think it naturally comes to guys more easily, but again I believe that society is harder on women who are interested. The tech industry is very male, it's not particularly inviting to women.

I think taking criticism more personally is possibly just a general female trait. I would guess that men aren't much better but are more conditioned to hide their feelings. As a female, it is hard to not feel personally insulted by such things. Part of the issue is that women need to be handled differently to me, I think.

DPyro 5 points6 points 1 month ago* [-]

Let's talk (anecdotal) facts:

Here's my experience at my colleges:

  • Electrical Engineering had an ok ratio (maybe 3:1)
  • Software Engineering: The colleges that offer a SWE major have a disproportionate amount of women in that major, maybe every 2 SWE female major to 1 CS female major.
  • Computer Science 5:1
  • Honors CS = 25:1

When you're a guy and nearly all the women in your upper-division/honors classes are actually overseas grad students, you develop the stereotype that women suck at CS. Is that true of every girl? Definitely not.

skooma714 2 points3 points 29 days ago[-]

They don't suck at CS, they don't even try yet.

wonkifier 8 points9 points 1 month ago* [-]

One interesting anecdote:

I'm a male, and I managed an IT team for awhile. We had one woman on the team. One summer we were allowed to get an intern, and while I didn't ask anyone for feedback on who to hire, there was only one person on the team who took the proactive step of making their general opinion known to me..the woman.

She just asked me to avoid hiring another woman because in her experience having multiple women on a team is just bad news, and ends up with internal problems. She wanted to be the only woman on the team.

I wonder how much of that is out there.

EDIT: for clarity

mjsolaro 7 points8 points 1 month ago[-]

I've been in technology for decades, managed huge teams, and never heard anything like that. I think that was an isolated incident with a psych-o lady.

Saydrah 6 points7 points 1 month ago[-]

Excellent information. Bookmarked. Did she say anything about responding to marginalization of women employed in the CS field?

demented_pants [S] 6 points7 points 1 month ago[-]

She didn't, at least not in any detail. She mentioned that one specific thing women can do is be more proactive about seeking out raises, but even that can be problematic because a lot of people, both male and female, tend to view women who speak up and negotiate in the negative.

Saydrah 5 points6 points 1 month ago[-]

Hmm... difficult.

If I had the funding, I'd do a study on types of praise that impact perceptions of women in the workplace. There has to be something managers can do to raise the social standing of marginalized employees, and public praise sounds like a place to start--but what types of praise would be best? Some compliments would probably be damaging and lead to the person complimented being seen as a "teacher's pet" of sorts...

demented_pants [S] 5 points6 points 1 month ago[-]

It's kind of an interesting problem, because so much of this isn't any conscious cultural bias. It's not like people in tech are setting out on purpose to make women feel marginalized and less valuable, but there's this giant pile of subtle, subconscious things that people do that make it really hard for women to get ahead.

CrossP 3 points4 points 29 days ago[-]

When I was a freshman CS major, the girl I was datingwas an English major but ended up getting pretty interested and took some programming classes. I always had a knack for programming, but she eventually went on to surpass me and graduated with a CS minor. Now I'm an English major.

SarahC 3 points4 points 1 month ago[-]

Interesting.

I wonder what the percentage of transsexuals is...?

demented_pants [S] 1 point2 points 1 month ago[-]

That's a very interesting question; unfortunately, no relevant data were presented.

SarahC 1 point2 points 29 days ago* [-]

I've got a few friends over at LiveJournal who are trans - IT and engineering is highly over represented. Trans and IT just seems to go together for some reason. =D

oldtymelemonade 3 points4 points 1 month ago[-]

CS Bachelor's degrees granted to women in 2009: 14%.

Number of CS departments reporting female enrollment: <10%

I'm confused. If less than 10% of CS students are female, but 14% of the graduates are female, doesn't that mean that a higher percentage of men (versus women) are quitting/flunking out? This sounds good for women, or at least, not bad.

In the IT workforce, only 25% of applicants are women to begin with.

How does that compare to other professions (teachers, cops, marketers)? Does it mean anything by itself? I'm honestly asking. And if 14% of graduates are women, and 25% of applicants are women, that sounds pretty good for women. Or at least, the statistics seem to contradict either other or doesn't make any sense.

Once you get through screening and hiring, that number diminishes significantly.

What's the actual statistic?

The other cultural points I don't take issue with, these are important things to bring up.

demented_pants [S] 1 point2 points 1 month ago[-]

Ah-ha!

I have a response for some of those numbers you were asking for.

The 14% number was the number of women receiving BS degrees in CS for 2009. This year, we're looking at a number of top institutions reporting enrollment at less than 10%, so even in academics, that number is still trending downward.

Regarding specific numbers: http://www.ncwit.org/resources.thefacts.html has stats for different fields and subfields.

demented_pants [S] 0 points1 point 1 month ago[-]

Oh, and regarding the 25% thing:

I misremembered the bit about 25%; disregard that part. What is really relevant there is that studies have found that when women make up 25% or less of the applicant pool, they tend to get judged much more harshly by those evaluating their applications/resumes. This is actually applicable across fields, not strictly in the IT world.

demented_pants [S] 0 points1 point 1 month ago[-]

I will have to send an email with those questions to the woman who presented the talk. Hopefully I can get back to you in the not too distant future with some hard numbers, but my class is about to start so it'll have to be later.

kdubb 2 points3 points 29 days ago[-]

I'm a woman with a degree in CS. I was usually either the only girl in every class, or at most one out of 2 or 3. One thing that pissed me off more than anything was when the boys would say that I'm only getting by because I'm a girl and I can just get any guy to do all my work for me. This was not the case at all. If anything, being a girl made it ever harder. I had a ton of trouble finding guys in my classes that I could work on projects with or study with because most of them were either afraid of me, or they just wanted to try to get with me. There was a certain level of respect that the guys all give each other and I always felt as if I was not welcome. This was nothing new to me though, which might have made it easier. Growing up I was the only girl in a neighborhood filled with boys and I also played ice hockey for most of my life, the first few years of which I was on boys teams. Now that I'm older and working full time, I still come across these situations on a regular basis. I've just grown to accept the fact that I will never really be accepted as an equal. I will never really be able to be part of the 'boys club'. Sadly, it makes me want to get the hell out of this field and I find myself wishing that I had done something more 'girly' in college like teaching. Maybe then I wouldn't feel as alienated as I do now. Here's a great example of being alienated due to being a girl: Last year my boss, who I had become friends with while at work suddenly stopped talking to me all together. It was very awkward and I had no idea what was going on. Since he was my boss, there of course were alot of times when I needed to talk to him about things but he would keep it as short at possible leaving me feeling like I did something terrible wrong. I was worried that I would loose my job and I had no idea why. Finally a few weeks later he let me in on the truth. His wife had found out that we had become friends at work and since she is insanely jealous she told him he was no longer allowed to talk to me. I swear, he avoided me like the plague afterward. I did absolutely nothing to deserve being treated like some tramp that was trying to 'steal her man away'. But I know that if I was a guy none of that stupid drama would have ever taken place.

mattyxo 4 points5 points 1 month ago* [-]

Ugh. I'm a women in IT and it's fucking awesome. I am paid more than every man in IT I know with the same skill level. I get raises because I ask and I'm professional. I work on a team entirely of females (never thought that'd happen!) and it's great.

I get 'outstanding' in my reviews because I AM outstanding.

What ever happened to workin' out your problems? Don't know how to do office politics? LEARN them. There IS a way to be a woman in a male-dominated environment and be powerful, without looking like a bulldozer. If your current workplace isn't doing it for you then fix it, leave or stop complaining. Not every woman is cut out for IT: it demands that you be confident in who you are and not complain that the workplace is unfair.

Edit: Because the workplace is unfair - regardless of whether you're male or female. Don't pretend that a Utopian office place exists.

demented_pants [S] 12 points13 points 1 month ago[-]

I'm not pretending that a Utopian office place exists, but that doesn't mean these aren't issues that we as women - and as humans in general - should be thinking about and addressing.

I'm all for women being more proactive and negotiating for themselves. I certainly do whenever it's appropriate, but that's not the only factor.

Not every woman is cut out for IT

That's true, but there's something to be said about the fact that two-thirds of women who are passionate enough about the field to complete a bachelor's degree or higher leaving the workforce within a few years.

DPyro 5 points6 points 1 month ago[-]

How many men leave? IT is an unforgiving field.

demented_pants [S] 2 points3 points 1 month ago[-]

That's a good question and an interesting point - IT jobs tend to have some of the highest turnover of all positions, I know, but specific data I couldn't say for sure.

mattyxo 2 points3 points 1 month ago[-]

I was stubborn enough to complete a 4 year degree in IT (not CS) - there was no passion for me.

there's something to be said about the fact that two-thirds of women who (...) complete a bachelor's degree or higher [leave] the workforce within a few years.

What does that even mean? You start with an assumption that commitment to a 4-yr degree = passion and finish with a fact that has no baseline comparison. I don't doubt the validity of what you said but I'd be interested in seeing how many hires from any degree get a job in their field and stay there. How many careers do people have now? 30? (Huge number = gross exaggeration)

demented_pants [S] 2 points3 points 1 month ago[-]

there was no passion for me

I'm sorry to hear that.

the rest, about baseline comparisons

You raise an excellent point, and one that I'm going to have to concede.

endo 0 points1 point 1 month ago[-]

"That's true, but there's something to be said about the fact that two-thirds of women who are passionate enough about the field to complete a bachelor's degree or higher leaving the workforce within a few years."

Perhaps we should look at the colleges selling their wares? Maybe these women are being sold on something they end up not liking?

demented_pants [S] 1 point2 points 1 month ago[-]

You know, that's a very interesting point. I shall have to give that some consideration.

gangsta_bitch_barbie 7 points8 points 1 month ago[-]

I'm in the same boat and I totally agree with you - IT chicks rock!

One minor correction though... LIFE (not just the workplace) is unfair.

Saydrah 7 points8 points 1 month ago[-]

Sounds like you work for an unusually female-friendly IT team.

There are certain women who can "cut it" in IT no matter the odds, but I'm a little bothered by the idea that IT is the last refuge of the old saying, "Whatever women do, we must do it twice as well as men to be considered half as good."

In my experience, a mediocre man who rubs everyone in the office the wrong way can skate by in a male-dominated work environment, while a woman with the same traits will be either corrected or out on her ass shortly. Perhaps that's really doing a favor to women by making them better workers, but it's still a double standard that makes me a little uncomfortable. Work shouldn't be an ordeal that requires a montage of mental push-up scenes in order to train yourself to tolerate your work environment.

I don't really think that women in IT are typically judged by the same standards as are men. Individual results will of course vary, and I've had fairly good luck even when working with supervisors who were known for having "problems working with women," but I've also seen other women have problems in the workplace that clearly stemmed from expectatons that wouldn't apply to a male employee in the same position.

mattyxo 3 points4 points 1 month ago[-]

In my experience, anyone can skate by on nothing if you have enough skills to do so. I see it every day with some of the women (and men) in my office and I want to punch them for degrading the real work I do every day. It's not about being a man - perhaps the number of men you witness skating by is so high because there are so few women?

Work should never be a montage of mental push-up scenes but it always is no matter where you are. Life isn't fair and neither is work.

I'm a glass is too big kind of person - a problem is only a problem if you let it be a problem and FAR too many women are content to letting their woman-ness be a problem for them. Every part of the system works for me and if it doesn't, I fix it or move on. The more people that stop being complacent about their work environments, the more the good companies will have better employees and 'bad' companies will either suffer or change. Likely suffer because really, corporations don't change. Either way, it's a win-win in the long run.

storyofitall 3 points4 points 1 month ago[-]

Clap, clap, clap.... The women I know who work in IT and are successful sound and act very much like you :)

sunlight_smiles 2 points3 points 1 month ago[-]

In my experience, a mediocre man who rubs everyone in the office the wrong way can skate by in a male-dominated work environment, while a woman with the same traits will be either corrected or out on her ass

Perhaps its because people feel that women will accept guidance and are open to being corrected. On the other hand, correcting a man might wound his ego because he equates being good at his job to being a good person.

CS majors are the jocks of engineering. Can you think of another field where people have religious wars about what tool is appropriate to use (e.g. vi vs emacs, linux vs windows, apache vs lighttpd, etc.)? Can you think of another field where things of quantitative difference (e.g. how many languages do you know?) as used as a measuring stick of self-worth?

I'd suggest that society simply doesn't produce many of the type of woman that is both interested in CS, and enthused about participating in a jock-like culture. It's not capacity, but socialization that's brought us here.

Paul-ish 1 point2 points 29 days ago[-]

You should write a book.

endo 0 points1 point 1 month ago[-]

Awesome post.

TaylorTaylorTaylor 1 point2 points 26 days ago[-]

That summer I attended a really cool camp called First Bytes at UT-Austin. It was completely free and lasted a week. It's sole purpose was to get women in Computer Science. In the end, we all (50 girls selected to attend out of only 75 applying) got $1,000 scholarships if we majored in CS at UT. I loved the camp because I saw there were other girls like me which is rare at my high school. Actually there is not even a single one like me when it comes to computers. We have three girls in the second year of the CS classes at my high school. That is just down right sad. Computer Science was never pushed toward me by a single person until my CS teacher. I found it on my own, and it is really what I want to major in. I grew up a tomboy so I have gotten used to being one of the few girls in my classes already. I know it will be this way for almost the rest of my life too.

By the way if want to check out First Bytes, go to http://outreach.cs.utexas.edu/firstbytes/

My mom had to find the camp on her own, so try to spread the world to girls you know who like math or science in general. It was really fun.

odd-socks 1 point2 points 29 days ago[-]

that's really interesting. I regret not being more involved in my computing lessons. i never got abuse for being a girl inn the class but there were plenty of jokes! unfortunately, i didn't know as much as the guys (they were very geeky and had learnt most of it at home) so didnt have the confidance to stand up for myself, and/or listena nd ask questions and get help that i needed to do better. its a shame, i did a few CS modules during my maths degree and really do enjoy it. thanks for the stats

koikuri 0 points1 point 27 days ago[-]

You bring up another real problem for girl/women interested in CS and IT fields in general. It was the same in my classes: the boys seemed to know everything already, whether from learning on their own or (in most cases) taking CS classes and joining computer clubs in high school. I was constantly tooling around on my home computer as a kid, but none of that other stuff was available to me until college--it felt like starting with a handicap. Add in professors who talked down, classmates who belittled my work, and one awful situation where the prof gave me (because of my gender) a break on a project deadline (ooh, the boys in my class hated me after that, even though I didn't ask for it), and... well, I dropped programming and took art classes instead.

odd-socks 0 points1 point 27 days ago[-]

thats exactly how i felt, i really wanted to learn but felt so far behind that they assume im not capable of Learning!!

mangocurry 0 points1 point 1 month ago[-]

I was lucky that I had a hand full of girls in my year, and that a couple of them were as hard working and passionate as I am. Eventually, we managed to find some guys who weren't total jerks, but it took a long time.

I think the worst thing about my experience presenting, for both education and industry, showed me that the shorter my skirt, or the greater my cleavage, the better my result.

thesnowfox -1 points0 points 1 month ago[-]

I'm starting to wonder if I should just cut my losses and apply outside of tech right away. Although I don't have a technical or CS degree, I've worked in tech for the last 5 years.