Reddit, I am an alcoholic and am on my 5th day of sobriety. This is by far the hardest day so far, do you have anything to take my mind off it a little?

BlankVerse · 1 year

My father was up to as much as a fifth of whisky a day before he quit drinking. I didn't think that he'd stay sober for more than three or four days, but he stayed sober twenty years before he passed away.

When he first left rehab, he started going to at least 4-5 AA meetings a week. One thing that really helped him was finding the right meetings. He didn't do well at meetings that were mostly young adults or where most of the participants had multiple addictions (like meth or cocaine as well as alcohol). He did better at meetings that were pretty low-key and didn't put too much emphasis on the spiritual stuff.

For the last five years of his life he was down to one meeting a week. He'd ride his bike down to a meeting that was held on the beach on Sunday mornings. He usually wouldn't say much at the meeting, but I think that he liked being a quiet example that you could quit and stay sober for years.

skwingar · 1 year

The only thing that worked for me when I quit the sauce was hitting the gym. I'm not a fitness guy, and when I quit drinking, I was in the worst shape of my life, so it was an uphill battle. But wearing myself out every night was the only way I could get some sleep.

And, also, there's almost always another meeting to go to somewhere.

skwingar · 1 year

[deleted]

zoinks · 1 year

If you want, I can PM my cell phone number to you, and if you feel a strong urge to drink - you can call me and i can tell you what an asshole you're being

evilhamster · 1 year

This kid is cheering for you! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArvmMdf_9FE

Master_lain · 1 year

Congrats, 5 days is a big step, I wanted to reply to this so bad I created an account after lurking for 2 years! I'm an alcoholic sober for 1 year 5 months, and I was in your shoes more than once. 1. Get a sponsor, call him/her EVERY day no exceptions, no excuses, if you think your going to pick up a drink, call them even if its 1am. 2. Go to meetings as much as possible, 90 in 90 is ideal if available and don't drink between meetings. 3. Don't sit with yourself, stewing is a great way to go back out. But never forget what earned you a seat in AA, the "built-in forgetter" will get you every time.If your home group does chips/medallions keep it with you. Its always helped remind me.

These are a few things that helped me, Keep with it :)

Rinse repeat. Its one day at a time

nagash · 1 year

Clean everything.

[deleted] · 1 year

Not sure how long you've been drinking but if its been for any serious length of time (1-2 years+) you've probably gotten to the point where you're bored when you're drunk too but... you're drunk so it seems less annoying and/or you wake up the next day not remembering how utterly bored you were.

I've taken months off from drinking before and every time the first week was the hardest. There's three things that I start immediately:

Lifting. I love lifting, but I love my booze as well and they don't mix so well. If I'm drinking a lot, my lifts are shit, and I'll stop because I get frustrated. So, step 1 - reconnect with your body and get in the gym. Also I'd advise having a program for this so you can hold yourself accountable (don't just go in and sit on random machines).
Cooking. If you've never learned how to cook you'll be surprised how easy it is and it's something where you will get immediate gratification (sound familiar?). It's a great life skill, chicks dig it, and it's tasty. Learn how to make hollandaise sauce (and not fuck it up), roast a chicken, whatever. note: stay away from recipes with booze :P
Get anal about money. Alcohol is a total money trap. Only when you step back and tally it up will you realize what a fucking waste it is. Estimate the average amount of money you spend on alcohol each day. Each day you wake up put that amount on your dresser, stack that shit. When you crave booze think of all the awesome shit you could have done or bought if you hadn't blown it all on booze. Now think of all the awesome shit you're going to be able to do. At the end of the month go to the bank and deposit it - it WILL feel good.

skwingar · 1 year

Reddit, this is the moment we've been waiting for. This is where our five years of extensive research into timewasting at last come to fruition. Should we win the day, we can look back on this moment for years and say "gentlemen, this was our finest hour."

My best internet idea, since many have come up with real-life ideas: http://www.reddit.com/r/WebGames/

ltjboy03 · 1 year

Everybody please upvote this so he can see it.

I know it's a little late posting this as there's 600+ comments now. But I've been through a similar experience and I called my sponsor and this is what happened:

"Hey man, I'm really giving serious thought to going out"

"Clean your stove"

"What?"

"Clean your stove. Clean the whole thing. Scrub the shit out of it."

"What?! Why?"

"Clean the stove. Top to bottom. Then call me back." *click*

2 hours later, the stove was clean, I was tired, and I didn't use during that time. I called him back, told him I felt a lot better, and went to take a nap. It was a life saver.

TheManWithNoName · 1 year

IAMA alcoholic who is drunk right now and who is realizing the concrete negative effect alcoholic is having on his life. I mean, I like it, I really do. The first drink is because I want to, but the rest of them tend to take themselves, and it has hurt my life recently in some nontrivial ways. I hope I can get it under control before it gets to the point that it really hurts me or I have to quit completely. I'm not so sure though. But I wish you luck and I hope you stay strong. You are in a better position than me right now and I hope you can stay there.

skwingar · 1 year

Have an orangered. Cheers me up every time.

[deleted] · 1 year

Portal is free

neo-privateer · 1 year

No need to worry, as well, if you have an internet connection. TONS of great AA content right on-line. Here's some stuff to start

Speaker tapes

http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=category&id=1 (search for Don P., he's a favorite of mine, and Bob O. from Colorado, and Bobby C. from Philadelphia, and Polly P. from CA)
http://5thtradition.org/ (the Brian P. talk is fantastic...and a bunch of this stuff is super old school)

AA information/history

PurplePumpkin · 1 year

First off- good for you and keep it up. If you live in a major city I can guarantee that there's meetings going on three times a day. Even just go to NA. They won't kick you out. There's also meetings online. This is why a social worker or sponsor will tell you to hit 90 meetings in 90 days. It gets really depressing trying to get through the beginning totally alone like that. Dont let yourself get depressed. Please PM me if you want to talk. I know what it's like. Stay strong. :)

seltaeb4 · 1 year

Word Search puzzles.

I once went through a spell where thoughts were unavoidable and painful. To keep my mind occupied, I would start at one corner of the letter grid and scan each line, then look at the next line following the other direction, and so on until I found the first letter of a word, then would look around the first letter in all directions to see if I'd uncovered the word. Then, I would circle each letter individually as slowly and precisely as possible before moving to the next word.

Banal, yes, but it kept the thoughts at bay, or at least greatly lowered their volume and intensity. Anything to get through to the next moment, and eventually I'd be able to fall asleep. If I woke, I'd resume the puzzles before the thoughts crept back in.

You can get small newsprint books of them at magazine stands for a few dollars. I didn't like crossword puzzles or logic problems, as I found it was very easy to become distracted. The mindlessness of Word Searches way key to its appeal for me.

You can beat this. May every success be yours.

BenevolentDog · 1 year

You shouldn't have to go 6 days on your own... don't you have an AA sponsor or someone else in the group to call?

Goddamn_Batman · 1 year

Have you ever watched someone with the DTs? Yeah. My pops was a life long alcoholic, one of the times he was coming down he was tearing at the hospital bed sheets and snarling like a wild animal for hours before passing out, only to repeat. I'm 29 now, but 5 years ago he died of cirrhosis of the liver. Most of my adult life my older brother and I took my dad, almost yearly, to a new rehab place. And he fell back almost immediately every time.

At any rate, get your head out of your ass, get it done, and don't go back to it or you're going end up tearing at bed sheets while your horrified sons look on.

Lady_Gagas_Penis · 1 year

Read. Go someplace beautiful and listen to music. Run. Cook excellent food. Spend time with your friends. Go someplace new.

Keep going till you can't stop. The worst thing is sitting, staring at the clock waiting for the hours to tick by.

throwawayaccount910 · 1 year

find a hobby

I personally like to work on cars. It takes a lot of time and keeps my mind on one thing.

mambo75 · 1 year

Why wait until Thursday for a meeting? You might try orange juice and honey. It's an old school AA remedy for cravings.

obuibod · 1 year

No joke: Quality ice cream. Your body is craving simple sugars.

Kalthazor · 1 year

I like Craig Ferguson's speech about his own battle with Alcohol

Hope it helps!

hillsonn · 1 year

One day at a time my friend.

My father stopped drinking when my mother was pregnant with me. I owe the life I knew as a child to AA and the people who attend. It has been 23 years of sobriety for my father now and he is stick very active in the community, he is always leaving dinner to take a phone call from someone he is sponsoring... I am not saying this so much as to say my dad is a great guy (even though he is). What I am trying to say is that there are people who gone through exactly what you have and they are willing to help you in however they can.

Get to a meeting, like BlankVerse there are lots of different groups, go around until you find one you like. If you happen to be in the WV area then I can personally give you some information.

Best of luck, you can do this.

thumbtackpress · 1 year

I call shenanigans; you can find a meeting before Thursday, even if you have to drive a bit. And if you don't have transportation call the support numbers for AA members in your location and they will be MORE THAN HAPPY to get you there - go here and punch in your zip.

Toyota4Runner · 1 year

Get a great sponsor; someone who really cares about your success. There is no greater struggle than those with yourself, but also no reward so great than those for personal success. Try to put into perspective what's important to you and what you want out of your life. Find someone to help you that will hold you to your high standards, help you meet your goals, but who will also be supportive if you slip. It's amazing what influence an outsider can have.

From a practical, day-to-day standpoint, try to replace bad behaviors or enabling behaviors with different ones. Chain-smoking is one way, going to the gym is another (far preferable) one. Try to pick up any new activity, from sports to carpentry, or anything. Bringing new things into your life will help replace the old situations and feelings you are used to being in and having when you drank.

Also, a couple, less conventional things that may help.
(1)If you don't have one, you could get a pet. I have seen animals (mostly dogs) help people through some bad times. The responsibility you have, and the love you get back represent the same two-fold give and take of sobriety and personal happiness/success.
(2)Smoke some weed. I think that marijuana can do some good things medicinally and may just help your mind to relax a little bit, help you to sleep at night, increase appetite, etc. Having said that (that phrase always makes me think of Curb Your Enthusiasm :), /digression), I am not a doctor, and I am certainly, absolutely, not condoning taking up a different drug to merely replace your dependence upon alcohol. While many will scoff at this suggestion, it is merely that, and should only be regarded as such. Drugs affect everyone in different ways, it's just possible that some weed would affect you positively in your time of struggle.

Give it hell! Best of luck to you!

b-political · 1 year

Video games are good to take your mind off of the jones, just don't overdo it or you'll be trading one vice for another. No sponsor? If so call him/her for more tips/help. I personally just worked a lot and didn't have time to drink.

Fat_Dumb_Americans · 1 year

I can only speak for me, but I'd think it took me about five days to become fully sober: at least that long to detox.

Have you taken medical advice? Quitting booze cold-turkey is very dangerous, although I'd guess that you've come through the at-risk period by now.

Making a promise that before you take a drink tonight you post in here might work to give you a moment's pause; and if you are planning to hit the 7-11 for "cigs and milk" then go now, at least before you are climbing the walls, ideally take someone with you who won't be impressed if you slip a sneaky bottle into your bag.

I_luvtheCIA · 1 year

Running. Start a serious running program. It will be hard, you be sore - but it will give you something positive to do.

If you're interested I'll give you a couple of things to do to get started.

And try to eat healthier foods...or start taking a vitamin. This is a good thing you need to do if five days without alcohol is this difficult. Good luck....AND DON'T DRINK....ok? You can do it.

Marxshmarx · 1 year

I'm an American living in Korea. My girlfriend, also an American, is an alcoholic. We were on the wagon for 128 days until last Friday when we fell off the wagon. I wouldn't say I'm an alcoholic, but I certainly lean too heavily on alcohol, and I needed to stay clean for awhile. We fell off the wagon, and it was terrible. We got so drunk we could barely remember where we were, met back at home and had a slightly physical altercation. She remembers none of it, not punching me in the face or telling me to get the fuck out of the house. I barely remember shoving her against a wall and calling her a whore. It almost destroyed our otherwise healthy, loving relationship.

So, don't drink. But remember, take it day by day, if you fall off the wagon, get right back on. It's just not doing something. It gets easier as life goes on, but the hard part going forward is the memories of what happened while drinking fades. It starts to seem like less of an idea, you forget what it feels like to be drunk and you start to think that it might be different this time and that the times you had before weren't really so bad and that in retrospect you might have overreacted because you were really in control you just didn't recognize it. The most important thing to realize is that this is NOT TRUE, that it was as bad as you originally felt it. One good trick is to write about how bad you felt about drinking when you decide to quit drinking. Write it down and remember that it's true even when your memory seems to contradict it. Check our our blog it's called teetotaled at twenty-six

[deleted] · 1 year

Thank you for having the courage to do something that millions do not. I've lost a lot of good friends to alcohol, what you are doing is extremely difficult. Good luck.

prophet3467 · 1 year

Go to a different meeting! its ok! i need to go to meetings at least 3 times a week!

funknut · 1 year

It looks like there have already been a ton of helpful posts, so I just wanted to add that five days of sobriety is HUGE! You've made it this far, don't stop now, just for today!

278225mw · 1 year

my grandfather was an alcoholic. tried burning the house down a few times, fucked with my dads car, etc. when my dad was 20 he heard two BANGS and ran upstairs. third bang, and my grandma killed my grandfather. there's more things to life than that shit--keep that in mind.

Chris1218218 · 1 year

So what are you going to do to survive after the impending zombie apocalypse?

1 year

[deleted]

Walls · 1 year

Here are some guidelines.

Make sure you eat. Sugar is good, but go for fresh fruit and veg. Ice cream is great. Remember, alcohol is made from sugar, so always carry something, chocolate, whatever, to help with cravings.
Get a meeting or something else. Call a member, read an AA book (Grapevine is a good one), something written by another recovering alcoholic that will remind you of the good of this.
Sleep. Dude, you drank every day. Even physically, you're exhausted. Added to that, you're tired of life, I bet. Go get some rest.
If your body is tired teach your mind. If your mind is tired teach your body. Read, music, concerts, plays, movies, gigs, comedy.....swimming, gym, walks, hikes, parks, hills, drives and all the rest.
Don't expect perfection. You will have bad days and you will loose your cool. You will get stressed and you will make mistakes. This is okay and part of the plan.
Don't expect perfection from anyone else, either. Some folks don't know or care that it is day six. Let folks get it wrong. There are firstly a lot of people who will try to get you to drink again. There is also a group that for a while will be wary of you. Leave both of them be, you come first right now. Time will solve both of these issues.

You are getting yourself back. You need anything, you just say.

kyl3r · 1 year

Hey mate,

Just made an account to post this.

My father was an alcoholic for the last 20 years of his life. It destroyed his marriage with my Mum, his relationship with his family and worst of all he never really knew me. I loved him very much, but all his promises were never met due to his excessive drinking, in around 2007 he was drunk, fell and hit his head, causing brain damage. After this he was never really the same, seemed slow and couldn't write well.

Prior to him drinking he was a very skilled bricklayer, some of his works are still holding strong to this day.

Last year he died alone, at a rental property he had only been living in for a few weeks due to liver failure.

To be honest, he is better off now, his whole life was consumed by drinking alcohol. The only thing I could have wished for is to have known him better.

Don't let alcohol destroy your life, your family is a great support and they will be willing to help you if you're willing to help yourself. I hope you can make it through this tough time and get on with living and enjoying all the little things.

Good luck :)

pokeyjones · 1 year

Today I got my 30 day chip. I've been to 31 meetings in 30 days. Don't drink, go to meetings daily if not more, find a sponsor, do what they tell you. If you can't get to a meeting go for a walk. When you get back go for another walk. Every day your brain will work better and you will feel the need less and less. Today I watched a movie with my oldest friend and drinking buddy. He drank and it did not bother me. This may work for you, it might not depending on your situation and history. If you went to a meeting you will have phone numbers, use them. Just call and talk to people. They will understand. In a month or two you might be taking calls and you'll understand. You are not imposing and you are not alone. Serenity prayer again and again until you feel better. Good luck and IM me if you need to talk. You can figure my IM using your noodle. Also, don't drink. Just don't fucking drink.

BlankVerse · 1 year

Drink coffee.

Sealbhach · 1 year

Stop worrying about staying sober in the future, just be sober today. Don't go wandering into the past either, it's over and done with and it's what you're doing today that counts. Just try to relax and cultivate patience. Phone someone in the Fellowship if you're afraid you might drink. All the best to you!

SpasticusAutisticus · 1 year

The Orange Papers

[deleted] · 1 year

I wish I could say, after over a year sober I still can't say; other than it gets easier. Then every few months it gets difficult, but each time less so and with more time in between (look up PAWS after your 1st few weeks). Exercise, video games, sober socializing are all good (as mentioned). Anything really. You already beat the acute withdraws to its all mental from here on out; which is actually the hard part. You need time to develop new habits, but don't worry if they aren't optimal ones, as long as they are better than drinking.

On AA, I highly recommend it at the beginning just as something to do and to meet other sober people; perhaps get your gripes out if you are that kind of person or at least hear some others with the same gripes. I find its helpfulness diminishes with time (for me) though others find it beneficial forever. I can never get over the strange masonic/christian roots all the traditions have, but it's really the only game in town for finding sober people and sober things to do. And, no matter what your attitude on it is (from repulsed by it to cultishly indoctrinated), you'll find some others there with the same attitude.

This is my second try. I found in-patient treatment pretty helpful. Didn't do that the first time around. Probably could have lived without it, but it helped.

As an alcoholic I find mixing in with people with hard drug issues a little disconcerting. Not that I have an issue with the use itself; it's just many of them have a lot more intense or, at least, different issues to work through. It can feel minimizing to your issues to spend too much time trying to communicate with them; also many of them (unfortunately) are not really sober but are really good salesmen. Try to meet with people with similar stories and backgrounds, because this shouldn't ever become a pissing contest over who has the most war stories or wounds from them; this should be about healing.

Good luck brother. You will have to find your own path. Hopefully someone will give you some advice that clicks with you.

colino · 1 year

read about citalopram. that lowers desire for alcohol. good luck--i am struggling too.

GreenDragonSage · 1 year

Stop smoking, stop eating junk food. When your body starts getting the nourishment it needs you stop craving those bad foods. Chew some gum or just beat box for fun to keep your mouth satisfied of its fixation. Working out is excellent, getting in shape not only sharpens the body, but it sharpens the mind. Take an aspirin everyday. It reduces heart disease risks by 60%, and it increases circulation and body function.

Take the now free time you have, and educate yourself! Surf reddit's new posts for a few hours to keep updated on politics, religion, etc. Start drinking tea instead of beer.

And remember....if you have a strong will, you can accomplish anything..best of Luck

1 year

[deleted]

Draegur · 1 year

PORN!

lizard450 · 1 year

I would recommend you start running. If you are overweight it will give you something to get into and strive for. Just think of your goals in life and start heading towards them always think of your goals in life and head towards them. Drinking is a thing of the past.

Inlander · 1 year

You seem to be misinformed about AA. It only takes two to have a meeting, and your having one now. Good for you keep coming back. There are usually three meetings a day in most cities. Look for them. One a week is not an AA way of things. Day to day. Another thing stop counting the days of sobriety you have. You have only today. One day at a time. Also get off the sweets and couch. Jog, run, socialize, go to the mall, go out in the city and sit on a bench and read your AA book. Go and look for someone else in need, and help them. Go to the local thrift store and see if they would like some help a couple hours a day. Find your local Habitat for Humanity and join these things will keep you busy and build a community for you which is also what is missing in your life. Good luck, by coming to Redditors your doing the right thing for you , today.

disgustipated · 1 year

Oh dear, it's storytime.

My wife was a career alcoholic. She would drink, on average, either a gallon of wine, a 12-pack of beer, or a fifth of scotch every day. This started shortly after we married, and continued until it put her in a coma.

Toward the end... I didn't want to be around her. Her skin smelled like stale beer. She said and did a lot of stupid things, though she was incredibly good at looking/acting sober. I ended up having an affair with a woman who was almost 20 years younger than me.

One day, she was really sick. I took her to the emergency room. The doctor looked at this 38 year old woman and said, "You have the body of a 70 year old." She had caught a cold bug, but in her condition, it was really taking it out of her. We went home after a trip to the local pharmacy.

Two days later, I call home from work, she's not answering the phone. I have a neighbor check on her, who calls back and says she's in bed, breathing but unresponsive. All she does is clench when a noise is made (I later learned this is called posturing, and it's a ver bad sign).

She went by ambulance to the nearest hospital who stabilzed her and determined she was in a hepatic coma, from liver failure. It was a combination of alcohol and Tylenol that shut her liver down. They transferred her to another hospital with a world-famous liver team. She was comatose for nearly three months.

The lead doctor told me there wasn't much of a chance of her coming out of the coma. I signed the DNR; he said we'd wait two weeks before pulling the plug. During that two weeks, she came out of her coma. The next 12 months, she lived in a hospital bed in our living room. Daily physical therapy and lots of love and support, and she got better.

But she didn't get better on her own. She had a little help from her friends, all legally prescribed: Oxycontin for chronic pain, Xanax for her brain, Ambien for sleep. She simply traded one addiction for another.

skwingar, congratulations on your success. And good luck.

timb0x · 1 year

Don't watch Madmen.

ars_moriendi · 1 year

I don't buy the higher power thing, but you would be well-recommended to do the 90 meetings in 90 days routine with AA.

novicegrammarian · 1 year

I can't believe how many assholes there are on this thread suggesting pubs and booze, and being smart asses. Walk up to a heroin addict with a needle and see how great you feel about your stupid BS behavior then. Not drinking after being an alcoholic is a huge and difficult victory. skwingar, I commend you. Don't worry if someone drags you back to the bandwagon, but know that you are making the right choice to take back the control of your life. Fuck all the haters on here.

PhillyPop · 1 year

This may sound really stupid but think of the positive you've done for the five days. Go outside tonight...wherever you are..clear or cloudy. Watch the night for a while. Know that the sun will be up tomorrow and a lot of people will be supporting you in their own way. Complete strangers to you. Throw the cigarettes away. Alcohol and Nicotine are the Lennon McCartney of vices. Try to find a planet. They wander through the night sky. Constellations are fixed. Look for satellites. It'll be better tomorrow. I just passed one year after 46 years. Nick is not your friend. Good luck and keep everybody posted. Meetings are for smokers.

CheerioMan · 1 year

Workout.

interrobang · 1 year

Your body is accustomed to a certain amount of sugar that you're no longer getting from alcohol--eating ice cream or candy will take some of the edge off. Watch out not to get into a big sugar habit, though! Good luck!

cyster · 1 year

75+ comments and no mention of the D-word, super.

GunnerMcGrath · 1 year

I'm no expert.. but don't you have a sponsor you can call to talk it out with? Or find another meeting? Doesn't seem like you should have to go it alone, and I'm pretty sure there are meetings everywhere all the time. I remember Ebert said he used to have to go constantly. There's no shame in going to a meeting every day if you need to, after all, they do say to take it one day at a time.

Also, from what little I know about beating addictions, the answer really seems to be keeping your mind active and on other things, rather than having big discussions with people about the thing you're not supposed to do. The one thing that keeps my mind active more than anything is a good video game, particularly a fast-paced shooter like Call of Duty. I can't tell you how many days I've blown through playing video games without even realizing it.

HRP · 1 year

Read Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace.

It will make you want to never be addicted to anything ever again.

m00b0t · 1 year

there are AA meetings everyday, you don't have to wait to go to a specific one if you need to be around other people in recovery, then go

especially a book related meeting

bumrushtheshow · 1 year

I'm pretty sure there are more AA meetings. Wherever I've lived, if you looked around, there were enough scheduled within, say, an hour's travel distance that you could pretty much go to meetings round-the-clock. This is no accident; the meetings are scheduled with people like you in mind. If you need to go to a meeting right now, there's probably one happening nearby.

IrishDemon · 1 year

Surround yourself with people. Go to meetup.com and find SOMETHING to do in your area with a group of people you don't know. Be upfront with them and let them know you're trying to get sober. You don't have to be "that guy" and spill your life story to them, but a couple of words about sobriety, and some of your new friends could become quite an important role in your support network. Exercise. Drink LOTS of water. Eat some raw veggies. Quit smoking. All you're doing is replacing one addiction for another. Get off your ass and go outside. Can't find anything to do? Volunteer. Do something for someone else instead of just focusing on your own problems. Get a large calendar and start making huge red x's on the days you don't drink. Religious? Pray til your knees are sore. Atheist? That higher power you'll hear about in the meetings is inside your head. Get a second job. Pick up a new hobby that requires lots of time and practice.

A side note - if you are in a relationship right now while going through AA, it will most asuredly completely destory it unless you do anything and everything to save it. Do NOT alienate the person you care about during this time unless they are toxic/enabling your vices. You'll come to regret it later, and it'll just be another excuse to drink. AA is a tool, and unfortunately it's been formatted for people with very weak minds (some temporarily, some permanently).

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