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What is required to wear the badge, Engineer? (self.AskEngineers)

submitted ago by WarWizardComputer/Electrical/Software

I am curious. I have in the developer community seen a degree be almost looked down upon. I have always felt that to affix the title of engineer to yourself, you needed to have an engineering degree. Am I wrong to take offense to someone with no post secondary education calling themselves a software engineer? I felt that engineers were always held to a higher standard and had an obligation to the global community above what normal people did?

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[–]tlpTRONMaterials/Cryogenics 23 points24 points ago

you are supposed to have a degree from an acredited and peer reviewed school as well as belong to your local professional group.

It is illegal to represent yourself as a professional engineer if you don't have the proper certifications.

What really seperates a real engineer is that he/she is legally responsible for their designs and constructions.

[–]VeggieSoftware - Seismic Analysis 15 points16 points ago

It is illegal

Depends where you live. I'm guessing you're Canadian or maybe American in one of a certain bunch of states.

But yes, the title should require certain certifications.

[–]ristorilControls/Simulation 15 points16 points ago

There's a difference between calling yourself "an engineer" in everyday parlance and representing yourself as an engineer officially (e.g. advertising or contact with the state). Don't go up to speak at a city council meeting and call yourself an "engineer" unless you have your PE. Don't put "Engineer" or anything like it in your company name unless you have the requisite number of PEs on staff (check your state's regs).

[–]gnovos -1 points0 points ago

What is a PE?

[–]SleislAerospace Eng. - Student (WPI) 1 point2 points ago

Professional Engineer: it' a title earned through a standardized testing procedure. It allows you to legally carry the title of engineer in legal matters, as well as sign off for responsibility on your designs. As a PE, if you sign off on a bridge that fails, you go to jail.

[–]gnovos 1 point2 points ago

But yes, the title should require certain certifications.

An engineer should require competence, not "certifications".

[–]VeggieSoftware - Seismic Analysis 0 points1 point ago

Okay, sure, but certifications are one form of proof of competence in theory.

[–]melanthiusPhD ChemE / Engineering Consulting 3 points4 points ago

I have an engineering PhD from an ABET accredited university; my company still won't call me an "engineer" until I pass the P.E. exam.

[–]tlpTRONMaterials/Cryogenics 0 points1 point ago

Same as my company, I had to pass the exam by the local professional organization.

[–]AndrewKemendo 0 points1 point ago

peer reviewed school

What's a peer reviewed school?

[–]Ogi010Mechanical - Student (UCSD) 0 points1 point ago

ABET certified

[–]AndrewKemendo 0 points1 point ago

Right, accredited - still not sure what "peer reviewed school" is.

[–]Ogi010Mechanical - Student (UCSD) 0 points1 point ago

Read up what the abet accreditation is ;)

[–]tlpTRONMaterials/Cryogenics 0 points1 point ago

reviewed by the local professional association

[–]gnovos 0 points1 point ago

Illegal where?

[–]tlpTRONMaterials/Cryogenics 1 point2 points ago

In Canada and US

[–]lacrosse9654 13 points14 points ago

The term Professional Engineer is highly regulated and there are strict standards for you can use the title. However, each state regulates the generic term "engineer" and it varies what if any requirements there are link.

[–]VeggieSoftware - Seismic Analysis 3 points4 points ago

I find Software Engineering to be a nebulous new (I use "new" loosely) field which has only recently been recognized to be an Engineering activity (and it very much is). The field is almost completely populated with developers that entered it with qualifications that are not Engineering certifications.

That might be okay considering they got their qualifications from a system that not until very recently recognized software development as an Engineering activity.

That said, many places actually have a legal protection on the title of Engineer, which will require you to be a member of their Association, which may or may not require you to have a degree with the word "Engineering" in it. Each province in Canada has such an Association (e.g. APEGGA in Alberta).

Finally, back to software. I'm not convinced that all Universities are equal when it comes to their Computer Science programs preparing the students to work as a developer. Sure, they get a myriad of courses on different software topics, but there may not be core teachings on development methodologies, design practices, ethical obligation, or project management. My alma mater has a Computer Science program like that, but also has a Software Engineering program alongside the other Engineering branches. They share common courses in 1st and 4th year to teach core Engineering competencies like I mentioned above. I would hazard to say that SENG grads are more prepared for their field than CPSC grads, at least in my limited experience.

But, like you said, your local laws and culture could be different. Your local field might be filled with self-taught programmers who look down on the institutionalizing of software development with things like degrees...

[–]spacedanspliffChemical - Process 5 points6 points ago

My $0.02, so feel free to argue... To me, engineering requires knowledge of real world systems and interactions. That requires a large base of knowledge in things like Physics, mathematics, materials, chemistry, and basically any and all sciences. True engineers can relate the abstract concepts of the sciences to real world problems to build reliable and maintainable systems. Software development is very difficult and is too often abstract, but does not require much knowledge in the way of physical sciences. I work for an engineering consulting company that produces its own software. I have a great deal of respect for our developers as they do some amazing things with the software that I could never do. But, the thing they do not understand is the base material, the equations that they are writing into the program. They need engineers such as myself to stress the program and tell them when the results of calculations do not make sense and do not match reality.

[–]the_fuzzyone 1 point2 points ago

See I may be biased since my stream in engineering is software in a accredited engineering school in Canada, and my opinion is that software engineering is a legitimate engineering principle. You can't just do code for a complex system from scratch. You need to plan out you're modules, an then develop different algorithms to solve your problem. Then choose which algorithm is the best. Then prove using discrete math and formal logic to prove and show that your program executes as it is supposed to. You dont need a software engineer to create an iPhone app or something simple. but you would need one where your software will be handling complex processes in industry. /end rant

[–]spacedanspliffChemical - Process 1 point2 points ago

Thanks for that explanation, i really liked reading it. I appreciate having that insight, because I never saw those activities done by a software engineer. In my company, the process engineers did the bulk of the module planning and the algorithms to actual solve the problems we are trying to model (which is pressure safety systems for chemical processes). But, on the other side of that, none of the chemical engineers did the actual module coding, we were involved in everything up that point, and then we are involved in validating the resulting modules for correct output.

[–]WarWizardComputer/Electrical/Software[S] 0 points1 point ago

To me, it sounds like if you have process engineers doing the design work that is where the engineering is and not with those implementing the solution in software. In my mind the software is implemented by developers in this case, not necessarily an SE. While those doing the development may be qualified as engineers, they are not doing Software Engineering. They are developing. You can be a damn good developer without any formal training.

I have a degree in Computer Science and Engineering, a blend of CS and EE. I am an engineer. I wouldn't dare call what I am doing in my current job Software engineering though. For the most part I am just spitting code. In my last job I was designing systems AND implementing them. I was engineering software and developing it.

Being a good (or great) developer doesn't mean you could be a good software engineer and for that matter, being a great software engineer doesn't mean you'd make a great developer (although it is easier to infer I than the latter case I feel).

[–]VeggieSoftware - Seismic Analysis 3 points4 points ago

Engineering doesn't require you to know "any and all sciences", and is certainly not limited to the physical sciences.

Engineering is the activity of design based on scientific principles and standardized methodologies. Your job requires you to design chemical process systems using your knowledge of chemistry and mechanics, and some of your standardized methodologies involve using software that someone made.

But if you are Engineering software, you are designing a software system using your knowledge of Computer Science, and includes standardized methodologies such as software design patterns and project management techniques that are very similar to what you might use in your own office. Whether those systems make a game or a physics simulation or model a chemical process, all that is part of the problem domain but does not detract from the actual development process.

[–]spacedanspliffChemical - Process 2 points3 points ago

Thanks for breaking it down that way, and I can completely understand where you are coming from and agree with you. The thing was that the individuals in my company that have the software engineer title don't do those activities you are talking about, they were mostly involved in strictly coding specific models that were developed by the process engineers.

[–]lostboyzElectrical - Automotive 3 points4 points ago

Sanitation Engineer aka trash dude. People tack on buzzwords to everything, it's not hard to distinguish the two.

[–]WarWizardComputer/Electrical/Software[S] 1 point2 points ago

I kind of take offense to that, and I am not exactly sure why. The guy who picks up my trash isn't engineering anything about it. He drives a truck and flings trash into it. I understand it makes them feel better about their job (not that they should feel bad about it in the first place! It is important and somebody has to do it!) but they aren't involved in actual engineering activities.

[–]sniper1rfaManufacturing 1 point2 points ago

This has been posted just about once a month. Requirements and opinions vary wildly.

[–]WarWizardComputer/Electrical/Software[S] 0 points1 point ago

Guess that means it is something that still needs addressed.

[–]sniper1rfaManufacturing 0 points1 point ago*

Meh, I'm in the camp that thinks the degree, while a good way to learn, should not be used as the bar for qualification as an engineer.

A degree should only be used as a positive test: if you have a degree you probably know some set of information and it should be easier to qualify as an engineer. It's not a valid negative test though, since you can know something without learning it at school. That means requiring it can eliminate many technically competent people for no good reason.

These threads generally devolve into a fight between those in my camp and those in the "degrees only" camp. It's a fight that gets absolutely nowhere, though it does garner a lot of downvotes for me. :)

[–]BrainSturgeonChemical 2 points3 points ago

In that sense the PE exam shouldn't really qualify you either.

[–]sniper1rfaManufacturing 0 points1 point ago

No, but at least the P&P is in a reasonable position to be fairly objective, and it is much more accessable (read: cheaper in both time and money) than a four year degree.

[–]Dorama1427 0 points1 point ago

There is an FE exam that degreed engineers can pass as well. It's the first part of the PE process.

Other than that, I don't have a good place to draw the line of engineer, or non-engineer, but I do think mine tends closer to the degree side.

[–]WarWizardComputer/Electrical/Software[S] 0 points1 point ago

It is very true that you don't need to have a degree to know things and be good at it. I just feel that to be able to be able to affix certain titles to yourself, such as Engineer, that carry weight and some authority, should require a little more than having knowledge. There should be some documented evidence backing up that knowledge.

I have (unfortunately) a lot more experience with people who have the title "Engineer" affixed to them, whom do not have any degree or any relevant formal education, that really aren't qualified or knowledgeable enough to. I have seen those with degrees be the same.

I guess what it boils down to is that I feel the title of engineer is a big deal and not just anybody should be allowed to use it.

[–]sniper1rfaManufacturing 0 points1 point ago*

I guess what it boils down to is that I feel the title of engineer is a big deal and not just anybody should be allowed to use it.

Sure, I agree. Not everybody gets to call themselves a dancer or a doctor either. I will never refute that.

What I don't like is the modern dependence on "formal" education. It's not that formal education is a bad thing, it's that lofting it to such a high pedestal trivializes informal education. There is now an unspoken agreement in western society that people simply cannot truly learn something in an informal setting. Worse, many people I've met believe this of themselves. They truly believe, deep down inside, that things they learn outside the classroom are somehow less valuable or less "correct" than what they learn in the classroom. This belief exhibits itself as a sort of mental block - it prevents people from tackling problems without guidance and creates an artificial barrier to their own advancement.

That's why I don't agree with requiring formal education to gain a title. I think it should be considered, but it should not be an absolute. What should be an absolute is your technical and practical competency. The PE exams in the US do this to some extent.

One thing to remember is that the PE exams themselves do not net you a PE stamp; you could conceivably pass the PE exam and not receive your license. It's just that passing the PE exam under the normal regulations has all the other stuff built in - in order to even take the exam you need your experience considered by the licensing board and you need recommendations from previously licensed engineers. The licensing board needs to have proof of your competency in practice before allowing you to prove your technical competency.

In the context of the PE examinations a degree is not really a useful metric. It doesn't really tell you anything more while still artificially filtering candidates.

As for unlicensed engineering - in my opinion anybody who practices engineering should be called an engineer. This seems pretty simple to me: If you design and implement systems for a living then you are an engineer. You may be a shitty engineer, but you are an engineer. Without the PE you cannot hold any legal authority anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

[–]WarWizardComputer/Electrical/Software[S] 0 points1 point ago

That all makes sense, and I suppose you are right. I could call myself Emperor of the World, but unless I really am, it doesn't matter eh?

[–]petemateElectrical - Power/Electronics 1 point2 points ago

It depends where you are from. Where i am from(Denmark), everybody can call them self engineers. But you have to have an actual degree in order to be "diploma engineer" or "civil engineer", which are the two different types of education within the engineering field. If you call yourself civil engineer(or any other protected title) without a degree, you can be punished.

Note that "civil engineer" has nothing to do with civil engineering. Its basically the title of a civilian engineer, because in the old days you would distinguish between military engineer and civil engineer. For instance, i am a civil engineer in electrical engineering(M.Sc.EE).

[–]Niffux 1 point2 points ago

No you're not.

[–]petemateElectrical - Power/Electronics 1 point2 points ago

Stalker! :o

..but technically correct, its going to be a few months before i can say that i am an M.Sc.EE. Currently i am only a B.Sc.EE.

[–]mantraElectrical - Analog/Semiconductor 1 point2 points ago

Software engineering is one of the mushy between zones for this. Sorry. On the other hand you can say "Oh, so you like how a sanitation engineer is an engineer then. Ok, I get it now"

If they are doing hardware and claiming engineer yet with no degree, then you are entirely in your right to punch them out however.

:-)

[–]WarWizardComputer/Electrical/Software[S] 0 points1 point ago

It is a bit of a "new" field but just because it involves bits and bytes instead of wires and transistors...? I don't know. I don't think that makes the practice any less of a valid one.

I have discovered, reading some of the responses, that I think my bigger problem is needing to have a distinction between Developing software and engineering software.

Would a mechanical engineer take offense to an assembly line worker in a Ford plant calling themselves an automotive engineer? I think that is a similar comparison...

[–]gnovos 1 point2 points ago

Errr. My degree is in anthropology, but I am one of the top dozen software engineers in the country. A piece of paper does not make you an engineer, nor does the lack of one make you not.

[–]bobobano 1 point2 points ago

in order to be an engineer you have to find problems, then develop and implement solutions for them

An Engineer is someone who engineers.

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